Christian Counseling, It’s Not What We Thought with Whitney Owens | Episode 25

Christian Counseling, It's Not What We Thought with Whitney Owens | Episode 25

Are you a faith-based counselor? Do you feel the need to pretend to either your clients or your therapist that you are all put together because you are faith-based? Do faith-based therapists differ from others?

In this podcast episode, Billy and Brandy Eldridge speak with Whitney Owens about Christian counseling not being what we thought it was.

Meet Whitney Owens

Whitney OwensWhitney Owens is a Licensed Professional Counselor and Private Practice Consultant. She lives in Savannah, Georgia, where she owns a group private practice, Water’s Edge Counseling.

In addition to running her practice, she offers individual and group consulting through Practice of the Practice. Whitney places a special emphasis on helping clinicians start and grow faith-based practices. Whitney has spoken at the Licensed Professional Counselors Association of Georgia’s annual convention and at Killin’ It Camp. Whitney is a wife and mother of two beautiful girls.

This entrepreneur went from a private practice owner to being a consultant. Providing fellow clinicians the tools they need to run a successful practice.

Visit Whitney’s website, connect with her on Facebook, listen to her podcast, or consult with Whitney. Email Whitney at whitney@practiceofthepractice.com

In This Podcast

Summary

  • A Christian counselor versus a counselor?
  • Is there a pattern to having a crisis of faith?
  • Challenges of being a faith-based Christian counselor

A Christian counselor versus a counselor?

People think that a Christian counselor has to have some kind of huge credential or training and yea its good to have some training and understand how faith integrates into therapy but honestly, I think a Christian counselor is just somebody who’s a counselor and also is a Christian and when appropriate, makes faith a part of the work you do with clients.

When Whitney says ‘appropriate’, she refers to when a client is requesting counseling that has a Christian perspective. However, it is possible to see lots of clients that are not faith-based and you can market yourself as someone in the middle who can work comfortably with both sides of people, faith-based and not.

Is there a pattern to having a crisis of faith?

I do think a lot of people have a crisis of faith because of what I actually just said, the church has hurt them in some way. So then they start to think, ‘so if the church isn’t real, and this is supposed to represent God, if they can’t be real then maybe God’s not real’.

Sometimes the church and people’s relationship to God coincides and other times it may not, but what is important is that you try to keep your faith consistent to yourself and not let outside perspectives of people mislead you. Especially so when you assume they are judging you when in fact you may be misunderstanding their actions.

When people come to see a counselor, they may try to act like everything is alright when in actual fact they need help. This also happens with Christian counselors and Whitney says people come in with a need to prove their faith to God to their counselor and that this is unnecessary and actually inhibits the therapy process further.

People come in like that and I get to see them in their yuckiest moment and I get to love them in the middle of it and they experience God in that. They experience God’s presence when we choose to love and accept somebody and their messiness, then they learn that its okay to be who they are and that they don’t have to be somebody else.

Then the counseling relationship can bring that intentional healing into their lives.

Challenges of being a faith-based Christian counselor

Whitney has experienced many challenges, but one is dealing with that same need as some faith-based clients have, to be perceived as being all put together and perfect, as a therapist and as a Christian. This need is not important and also inhibits the therapy process because you need to be authentic with your clients. B

Being real is more important than being admired, and Whitney says that sharing her struggles, when appropriate, with a patient can be incredibly helpful to them in their healing, for them to know that even their therapist can struggle with life sometimes.

Are you ready to find the freedom to be yourself as a beta male? Do you want permission and tools to be your best beta? Are you ready to join the revolution to find strength as a beta? If you want to be comfortable in your skin and be the most authentic beta male, then our free beta revolution course is for you. Sign up for free.

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Meet Billy Eldridge

billy-eldridge

Meet Billy, the resident beta male. For Billy, this is a place to hang out with other beta males and the people who love them. We’re redefining what beta males look like in the world. I have learned to embrace my best beta self, and I can help you to do the same. As a therapist, I understand the need to belong. You belong here. Join the REVOLUTION.

Meet Brandy Eldridge

brandy-eldridge

Hello, Beta friends. I am an alpha personality who is embracing the beta way of life. I feel alive when connected with people, whether that is listening to their stories or learning about their passions. Forget small talk, let’s go deep together. Come to the table and let’s have some life-changing conversations.

Thanks for listening!

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Podcast Transcription

[BILLY]:
Beta Male Revolution is part of the Practice of the Practice Podcast Network, a family of podcasts seeking to change the world. To hear other podcasts like the Bomb Mom podcast, Imperfect Thriving, or Empowered and Unapologetic, go to practiceofthepractice.com/network.

What is up, Beta Male Revolution? Thanks for joining us today. If you haven’t had a chance to go over to your favorite podcast listening app and rate and review, Beta Male Revolution, please do. Hop on over, we appreciate your feedback. Also, there’s an email course for those who consider themselves to be a little more beta in the world, and for those people who want to understand them. So go to betamalerevolution.com, go to courses, it’s a free ecourse you can check out.

Today, Brandy and I have Whitney Owens on the podcast. And let’s just say she took us to church. She’s a licensed professional counselor, she’s a private practice consultant, she lives out in Savannah, Georgia and I did a horrible Savannah, Georgia accent based on Andy from the office and you’ll get to hear that. But she owns a group private practice, Water’s Edge Counseling, and she also was part of the Practice of the Practice network where she has a Faith in Practice podcast where she helps clinicians build faith-based practices. And initially going in, the term Christian counseling has always kind of had a weird feel to me, and people always want to know, am I a Christian counselor? I am a counselor who happens to be a Christian, but I don’t always bill myself as that because of all the complexities that go into what people will come in and assume what that might mean. And usually, for me, that’s I would pre judge them based on my values and beliefs. And I don’t believe that that’s what counseling is about. Whatever faith someone comes into my office with, that is very important for me to see their world through the lens through which they view it. And in talking with Whitney, so much of the stuff came out and it was an education for me, and an understanding of someone who operates a more faith-based practice, how they tackle those issues. And, and I kept saying Christian counselor, and she was like, wait, wait, no, no, no, not that.

So you’ll get to enjoy those conversations about faith, the complexities of faith. We love talking about that on Beta Male Revolution. It’s been a part of my life and Brandy’s life, wrestling with faith, understanding it, getting okay with it, what does it mean in our life now? Because it’s not what it meant for us when we were growing up. And all of those things. And we feel that a lot of people go through this crisis of faith journey, and coming back around and finding something different and new, because we both know we didn’t want to walk away from everything. So what does that mean for us? What does that mean for others? If those conversations are interesting to you, keep on listening. Also, we have some exciting stuff coming up in the way of consulting Brandy and I want to do with couples and individuals, so keep listening for that. And here is Whitney Owens.

[WHITNEY]:
Thanks for having me on the show. Always a joy to talk to the two of you.

[BILLY]:
Yeah, well, so I remember when we met you in Estes Park, Colorado. And I’ve always… haven’t been to Savannah, but I’ve heard wonderful things about it, and I’ve always loved the accent. And I remember Andy from The Office, if you ever watched the office, he gave a demonstration of how to do a Savannah, Georgia accent and he says, it’s just like molasses rolling off your tongue. And I don’t know if I just butchered it, and everybody in Savannah will write me nasty letters, but I love the episode.

[WHITNEY]:
That’s funny. He actually says Savannah, Georgia on the episode?

[BILLY]:
I believe so. I believe so. Whether it was Georgia…

[WHITNEY]:
I’m gonna have to look that up.

[BILLY]:
Yeah. Yeah.

[WHITNEY]:
Perfect. Well, I am from South Georgia, so I’ve always had an accent. And then I moved out to Colorado for five years. And over time, it was slowly less and less strong. Even though people in Colorado thought I had a terribly strong accent. And then I came back here and it’s just like full swing, especially if I’m tired, or if I have a drink or two, then you really get a strong accent.

[BILLY]:
Well, and we’re probably the last people in the world to be talking about anyone with an accent because we’re from East Texas.

[BRANDY]:
Yeah, we can identify, for sure.

[BILLY]:
Yeah. So I want to get into a little bit of the work you do in the world. And me being a counselor in East Texas, one of the biggest questions I get when people call in, they want to know, are you a Christian counselor? And that’s not really kind of how I bill myself but I kind of have to phrase it like I’m a counselor who is a Christian so that does influence the lens through which I view the world, so that will come into play. But you are a Christian counselor, so tell me a little bit about that and how that’s different from just a run of the mill standard counselor.

[WHITNEY]:
Oh Billy, I love it because I do the same thing you do. And I totally think… it’s like, people think that a Christian counselor has to have some kind of huge credential or training or yada, yada, and okay, yeah, it’s good to have some training and understand how faith integrates into therapy but honestly, I think a Christian counselor is just somebody who’s a counselor and also is a Christian, and when appropriate makes faith a part of the work you do with clients. And ‘when appropriate’ would mean when a client is requesting counseling that it has a Christian perspective, you integrate that. But I see tons of clients that aren’t faith-based at all. And I also don’t advertise myself as a Christian counselor because I don’t want to lose those clients. I love working with really jaded clients, like, by the church, who’ve been really hurt by the church, and if they knew that I was a Christian they wouldn’t have come in the door.

[BRANDY]:
Billy has a term for that. What is your term for that, Billy? It’s like, not PTSD, but it’s like…

[BILLY]:
Oh, Post Traumatic Church Disorder.

[BRANDY]:
Yeah.

[BILLY]:
I could have seen you about seven years ago and I had a big case of that. I was cynical and jaded and had these jagged edges. And if I would have walked in, and somebody told me what I needed to believe, and how I needed to believe, and I didn’t feel like I had permission just to be messy and fall apart in front of them, and I had to come in and pretend like I’d done my whole life in church, it would have really been off-putting. So it’s been so refreshing getting to know you and talking to you, and hearing how you just flip that on its head and you’re not that, but faith is a big part of your life. And to me, that’s a beautiful thing. So with faith being a part of your life, you probably see a lot of people who come in that are having a crisis of faith. Have you ever had one of your own?

[WHITNEY]:
Oh, yes. Lots of…

[BILLY]:
So you’re a Christian counselor who’s had a crisis of faith.

[WHITNEY]:
Oh, of course, of course. I’ve had multiple crises of faith, you know, where you really, really question. And the other interesting thing about me is my husband is also a pastor. So we’ve got like the duo. One of the kids – he’s a youth pastor but he’s in the process of going through ordination, all that good stuff – but one of the kids in the youth group was like, yeah, my parents told me you’re gonna have some interesting kids, because you’re a counselor, and he’s a pastor.

Yeah, anyway, um, so yeah, crisis of faith, like when I first think about that, my biggest crisis of faith was when I was living out in Colorado. So I had finished graduate school, I was working at a psychiatric hospital out there, and talk about a challenging job, and my husband was in school getting his master’s of divinity. And just, you know, those things in life that you feel like, well, God told me this, and you kind of stand on it, you know. I knew that my husband was going to do ministry, like, I was standing on that. And so he started applying for jobs, we were wanting to come back to the southeast, and he must have applied for fifty jobs, easy, easy. And I think he got, I don’t know, just a couple of interviews and nothing was working out. It took a year and a half of him applying for jobs. And I know that seems kind of simple but for some reason, it really made me question faith. It was like, okay, this is this thing I know God wants us to do but now it’s not happening. And it’s not happening over and over and over again. And we were also at a church at the time where we just had a terrible experience where some of the lay people, I guess you’d call them – I don’t think they were deacons, they’re like lay people – basically told him that he wasn’t called to ministry, and that his giftings were not ministry and that he didn’t know how to shepherd people, he didn’t know how to preach to people, and who does he think he is feeling so called to something? And so it was that combination of not getting a job and then people saying that to us that we were like, if this is not what we’re called to, and if I can’t really hear God’s voice right, does God even exist?

[BRANDY]:
So when you have people come in your office, do they have similar experiences? I’m wondering, is there a pattern you see when it comes to crises of faith?

[WHITNEY]:
Hmm, that’s a good question. I do think a lot of people have a crisis of faith because of what I actually just said: the church has hurt them in some way. So then they start to think, well, if the church isn’t real, like, this is supposed to represent God. If they can’t be real, then maybe God’s not real.

[BILLY]:
Yes.

[BRANDY]:
I feel I relate to what you say. I feel like that God and the church, sometimes they meet, and I hope they do and sometimes they’re very separate. And that a lot of times God is not representative of the Christians that I meet. And then sometimes he very much is. And those Christians that give grace, and love, and sit with people are often the ones that bring me back to my faith when I am having a crisis of faith. And it’s the religious ones that are everywhere. It’s not the church. It’s just people in general that I feel like that draws me away from God. And I wonder in Christian counseling, do you get a lot of people that come in and feel like they need to clean themselves up before they come into your room?

[WHITNEY]:
Well, I think we get that as counselors in general, right? Because we have this authority place. And a lot of times clients transfer different people on to us if it’s a parent, or an old teacher, or a relationship they were in. And so they come in wanting to look perfect to impress us as therapists. So we definitely see that. But if someone thinks you’re a Christian counselor, yeah, they start to put this mold on you or something like that, that is faith-based, so then they think they have to be even more faith-based to see you, which honestly makes the therapy worse. You know, you got to like, point that out and work through it. And talking about people who are jaded by the church, I often have clients that come in and they’ll say, well, I don’t want to go back to church because when I went before everyone judged me. Okay, this is so common, especially I do a lot of work with college students. And so I say, okay, so you think you were judged by people? Did they actually say they judged you or make judgmental comments? Well, no, it’s just the way they looked at me, right? And so using some kind of therapy there, you get them to understand that you don’t really know what they’re thinking, but then taking it a step further. So you’re going to let your faith, one of the most fundamental components of your life, be impacted by this idea that maybe people judge you? And even if they were judging you, you’re gonna let your faith and where you choose to worship, be impacted by other people’s thoughts.

[BILLY]:
That’s so good. Because in some of our previous conversations I talked with you about how I’m at a place now where I really appreciate my upbringing and the foundation it gave me. But for the longest time, I took on a lot of messages. I don’t necessarily think they were sending, but I was receiving. And it was a lot of guilt, condemnation, judgment. I may have gotten little bits of that, but I took it on, like, I got tons of it. And I think that came more internally than it did externally. And I had to own that and say, you know, maybe not everybody was against me, telling me I was a horrible, awful human being. Maybe that’s just what I felt because I was doing some unhealthy things when it came to how I dealt with my own stuff.

And the other thing you said about kind of cleaning yourself up before you go to therapy, because I know I do that, as a counselor who goes to counseling, you know, my counselor has to tell me almost every time I don’t need you to be the ideal client. I don’t need you to come in here poised, and put that emotional makeup over your internal wounds and act like everything’s okay. You’re here to kind of be messy and fall apart. And I spent my whole life growing up in church that way, like, I gotta show up, cleaned up, and pretend. I can’t be real, because if people really see me, maybe they won’t love me. And I hate that people feel that in counseling sometimes because I know without a shadow of a doubt, that’s the last thing you would make people feel, right?

[WHITNEY]:
Right. Gosh, that is one of my favorite things about being a therapist, is people come in like that. And I get to see them in their yuckiest moment, and I get to love them in the middle of it. And they experience God in that. I don’t even have to sit and talk about God, they experience God’s presence when we choose to love and accept somebody in their messiness. And then they learn that it’s okay to be who they are, and that they don’t have to be somebody else. And so the relationship brings healing in their lives. I love it. I think it’s the most beautiful thing ever.

[BILLY]:
Yeah. Well, one of the challenges with being a faith-based therapist – because the way I’ve seen it, us being in Texas in the south, there’s either a bank or a church on every corner, and they’re all different flavors. So you’ve got Church of Christ, Baptist, Methodist, Episcopalian, and there’s all these different… do people come in and want to know what your particular faith tradition is, and want to make sure it lines up with theirs? Or are they pretty open to just, that’s yours, and this is mine, we can have a conversation?

[WHITNEY]:
Yeah, I think you can really run the gamut on this. I mean, I don’t offer my practice as faith-based necessarily unless people call and ask for it and then we’ll let them know that we’re faith-based. So I don’t tend to get people that are super conservative or fundamental in their belief system. And so I don’t really get a lot of people asking, oh, what’s your denomination? Now I do think we sometimes, if they find out you go to church, they’ll ask you where do you go to church, but actually in a town like Savannah, that’s not so much about faith as it is about society and popularity, because you go to church if you’re anybody down here. And so what kind of church you go to is like asking what high school did you go to. It’s more of that kind of perspective.

When you talk about challenges among Christian counselors there’s so many, I could name off so many. One of them that I was thinking about earlier, and I feel like kind of speaks to myself is, we don’t know that we’re so poised and put together until someone calls it out. Like you were saying, you’d go into your therapist, and they would call you out on it, you’re like, oh, maybe I didn’t realize it, or I did. I think, as a therapist, and as a Christian, and as a pastor’s wife, and as a mother, I totally feel like I have to look perfect, and it’s a constant battle every day that I have to remind myself, okay, it’s okay to be messy. In fact, I’m going to be happier and love myself more when I’m messy, and vulnerable, and talking about the stuff that sucks to talk about. Because if I just act perfect all the time, the way society or the way Christianity tells me to, I’m not going to be happy at all. So that’s been a huge challenge for me, and Slow Down School – which is a conference we do through Practice of the Practice in July, we go to Michigan – and that was when I really learned this for myself, like, I’m with all these counselors, and they were all like, Whitney, what the hell are you doing? Stop acting that way, and you need to see that you’re doing this. And it was like, changed me. And I came back and now I’m not acting the way that I used to act. And I’m being vulnerable and real with people. And I think that’s so important for Christian counselors, and counselors in general, because we can’t be fake with our clients. We have to be authentic in ourselves if we want real counseling to happen. And I think Christians have got to get through that because society kind of puts that on us, so we put it on ourselves.

[BRANDY]:
Clinton Doyle says something I love, and I shared it with my eleven year old daughter when she started school this year, but she says, “Would you rather be admired? Or would you rather be real and loved?” Admired and praised, or real and loved. And I think that you really hit it when you have all these layers of a pastor’s wife, a counselor, but you also as a woman, and a mom, it’s like we have this extra layer of we’ve got to keep it all together, and be examples. And I know, raised in the church, that was always something that I felt that pressure of like, I’ve got to be the example, I can’t mess up. And if I look like I mess up, then I’m reflecting on what God expects of really good Christians. And then, you know, finding that freedom later on in life, like it’s not about how good we are. It’s not about being admired. It’s not about being praised. But it’s about being real and about being loved. And I love the way you come at your walk with God, how it comes out when you speak, and it is about grace and vulnerability and love. And that’s not always the message we hear, but we hear it from you. And I think if I was in your office, I think I would feel that. And that’s just such a… not being a counselor, it’s something that’s so refreshing to know, that the counselor there can be messy, and she’s a pastor’s wife, and she said the word ‘hell’. And it’s just those little things that mean something. Because when we are looking like we’ve got it all together, I don’t want to go talk to that person. I don’t want to go open up to that person, because they’re gonna think that I’m ugly, and I’m messy, and I’m not good enough, because they’re good enough.

[WHITNEY]:
Thank you. I appreciate that encouragement. And yeah, we have to be real with our clients. Like, I will tell them when I’m having a bad day, I’ll tell them when life sucks. Obviously, I don’t make it about myself. It’s only if it’s like therapeutic for them and helpful for them. But I might share a story of my own crisis of faith when they’re having a crisis of faith. And I think too many counselors don’t engage in the relationship, that they make it kind of that one-sided conversation. But the point is, our clients are going to impact us and when we show them that, and we speak to that, that’s when real change happens in their lives.

[BILLY]:
Well, you spoke about your husband being in the ministry and you’re a therapist. And so those are two professions that I think the outside world looking in would think, you probably have it all together or need to have it all together. How do you stay vulnerable, and is there pressure to not be and to have it all together? Especially in Savannah, Georgia. I would assume there’s a little social pressure there. Do you come up against that?

[WHITNEY]:
Yes, yes. I love how you just said that. And I even talk to my clients about that because my ideal client is an anxious business owner, high professional, doctors, attorneys. So yes, in Savannah, you go to a party and – of course when we used to go to parties – but you go to a party and yeah, you feel like you can’t be yourself. People love hearing this on podcasts – I have a group of ladies that I get together with once a month. We call it The Supper Club, and we just get together and have a good time and chat. And so then when I’m there, though, I have to be super careful because I’m worried that if I say something or do something, like, this is my reputation, I’m a counselor. And a lot of times those ladies actually reach out to me for therapy, you know, for seeing one of my other clinicians. And so yes, there’s a lot of pressure there. So I think you do have to be really careful who you are vulnerable with and who you’re not vulnerable with. And so I’ve learned to surround myself with a few people who really know my story, who really know my need for vulnerability, and make sure that they’re holding me accountable, and getting on podcasts and making choices to be vulnerable instead of making choices to hide. It has to be a conscious effort to talk about it because if I hide, it’ll become a pattern of behavior, and then I won’t be happy again. So being able to force yourself to that, but only doing that in like really safe places.

[BILLY]:
Oh, that’s beautiful. I would love to be a fly on the wall of the dinner table conversations between a pastor and a therapist, who are married to one another. I bet it’s some of the most interesting content.

[WHITNEY]:
Well, sometimes. I mean, honestly, you probably… we all feel this way. Sometimes this phase of life, it’s more just about getting the kids fed, bathed, bed, and then you know, watching TV and going to sleep. By the time you get to the late part of the day, you can barely have a conversation. So we do have to make time for those early in the morning with cups of coffee or lunch dates too.

[BRANDY]:
Yeah, we get up and have coffee in the morning.

[WHITNEY]:
Beautiful.

[BILLY]:
Well, in wrapping up and getting to the end of this, there’s a couple of questions I always like to ask, and I’m just gonna throw ’em at you. And the first one is, what’s the hardest lesson you’ve had to learn?

[WHITNEY]:
Yeah, so you kind of gave me this one beforehand, and I’m still kind of racking my brain around it.

[BILLY]:
Yeah.

[WHITNEY]:
I mean, one lesson I would say I’ve had to learn – and we’ve kind of been talking about this – is just that life is not pretty, and that’s okay. You know, as a child… you know, a lot of counselors grew up with some trauma, and I never had really like big T traumas, praise God for that, but just a lot of mess within my family, we actually have a number of alcoholics in my family, and I felt very alone and just didn’t know what I was doing. And so life was just a mess. And life is still a mess, but I’ve learned to like be okay with it, and to trust God in it and find God in it, instead of just being angry at the mess that’s in front of me.

[BILLY]:
Perfect. And in that messiness, the final question: who or what inspires you to keep going and doing the work you do in the world?

[WHITNEY]:
So this would be a current person, correct? Not someone from the past or both?

[BILLY]:
Could be anybody, anytime, anywhere, anyplace.

[BRANDY]:
There’s no rules.

[WHITNEY]:
Yeah. I like rules. Okay, so I’m gonna say two here. So as I was young, my youth pastor, and like a spiritual director somewhat person, that has been really influential in my growth. And then now in the work that I’m doing as a therapist, but the consulting I’ve been doing and really only been doing for a year, and Joe owns Practice of the Practice and kind of mentors me, and I don’t think he would say that, but he’s been really impactful. And seeing the way that he has been successful, but also is really authentic and seems to care about the work he does, he’s not fake about it, and so that really inspires me for the importance of the work that I do with consulting and with helping people build their businesses. That it’s not about just making money. It’s really about changing the world, one practice at a time.

[BRANDY]:
I love that shout out to Joe. That’s great.

[WHITNEY]:
Yeah.

[BILLY]:
He’s a friend of ours too, and a beautiful human being in the world.

[BRANDY]:
I have a question.

[BILLY]:
Okay.

[BRANDY]:
Can I ask one?

[BILLY]:
Go right ahead.

[BRANDY]:
I want to talk Southern Charm. Do you watch the show? Have you met some of them? Do you see them around?

[WHITNEY]:
I heard that they came to Savannah. No, I don’t watch the show. Honestly, I wish I watched more TV. I feel like I only have time for one show a day, right at night before bed.

[BRANDY]:
Well tell us what it is. I want to know what does the Christian counselor, crisis of faith, watch?

[BILLY]:
She’s not a Christian counselor. [Unclear].

[BRANDY]:
I know.

[WHITNEY]:
Okay. So my current show is the Umbrella Academy. Have y’all seen it?

[BRANDY]:
No, I haven’t started it. But my kids wanted to start it.

[WHITNEY]:
Oh, I’d be careful.

[BRANDY]:
Oh, okay.

[WHITNEY]:
It’s a little dark. And the characters are… they get into some mess, and there’s definitely drugs, alcohol, sex, the gamut in the show. But I’ve been really interested in that show and I’ve really enjoyed it. I actually, before that, watched a show called The Sinner which actually had Harrison Ford in it.

[BRANDY]:
Did that have Jessica Biel too?

[WHITNEY]:
Yes, yes.

[BRANDY]:
Okay.

[WHITNEY]:
Yeah. It was just so funny to see Harrison Ford, and anyway, think about him in the 80s and 90s. And anyway, yeah. So those are the shows that I’ve most recently watched. And my absolute favorite show is Psych.

[BRANDY]:
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, I love that.

[BILLY]:
Brandy’s on a Homeland streak, right now.

[BRANDY]:
I’m on a Homeland streak.

[WHITNEY]:
Oh, that’s right. Ah, okay, I need to get… I’ve seen the first two seasons and never finished watching that.

[BILLY]:
Well, much like you, Whitney, I don’t have time for shows, but I need to make more.

[WHITNEY]:
That’s right.

[BILLY]:
Thank you so much for the work you do in the world, and taking time out of your day to spend some time with us and talk to us about faith and crisis of faith, and how to work through all that and what to expect if you go to see a faith-based counselor. Because when we talk about it, I feel like I identify a lot more with you than I did when we started because we have a lot of things in common when it comes to how we phrase that to people who call and ask, are you a Christian counselor? So thank you so much for validating that in me and everything you do in the world. We’ll talk to you soon, Whitney.

[WHITNEY]:
Thanks, y’all. It’s been a pleasure.

[BILLY]:
Are you ready to find freedom to be yourself as a beta male? Do you want permission and tools to be your best beta? Are you ready to join the revolution to find your strength as a beta? If you want to be comfortable in your own skin and be the most authentic beta male, then our free Beta Male Revolution course is for you. Sign up for free at betamalerevolution.com/course.

This podcast is designed to provide accurate and authoritative information in regard to the subject matter covered. This is given with the understanding that neither the host, Practice of the Practice, or the guest are providing legal, mental health, or other professional information. If you need a professional, you should find one.

Beta Male Revolution is part of the Practice of the Practice Podcast Network, a network of podcasts seeking to help you thrive, imperfectly. To hear other podcasts like the Bomb Mom Podcast, Imperfect Thriving, or Empowered and Unapologetic, go to practiceofthepractice.com/network.

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