Enneagram Mini-Series: Heart Center, Enneagram Numbers 2,3, and 4 with Jackie Coban, Part 2 of 5 | Episode 35

Enneagram Mini-Series: Heart Center, Enneagram Numbers 2,3, and 4 with Jackie Coban, Part 2 of 5 | Episode 35

What wisdom can the enneagram give you about yourself and your loved ones? Do you belong to the enneagram types 2, 3, and 4? Can understanding these numbers and the traits behind them add deeper pools of meaning in your relationships?

In this podcast episode, Billy and Brandy Eldridge speak with Jackie Coban about the Heart Center: Enneagram Numbers 2,3, and 4.

Meet Jackie Coban

Jackie Coban is an Enneagram & Life Coach: Episode 14

Jackie is a triple-certified coach in Life Coaching, Enneagram Coaching, and Neurolinguistic Programming. She is the founder of Table For 9 Coaching and the host of the Table for 9 podcast. She is a quick-witted, passionate, fire-cracker woman whose personal philosophy is that it IS possible to see people win in life, love, and work.

Jackie is a coach who works with various individuals and groups to help them embrace who they are and what they bring to the table, no pun intended. She is well-balanced in where she has worked: law offices, anti-sex trafficking movements, the non-profit sector, human resources, finance, and the like. She had one thing in common in all places: the pull to “make it work” for everyone. After leading 5+ teams simultaneously at a non-profit organization, she realized what everyone brought to the table was truly different and equally valuable, and she wanted other people to see it, too.

Visit Jackie’s website and connect on Instagram. Listen to her podcast here.

In This Podcast

Summary

  • Heart center
  • Type 2: The Helper
  • Type 3: The Achiever
  • Type 4: Individualist

Heart center

People who have their number in the heart center collection generally lead their lives through a feeling function. They use emotional awareness and focus on relationships and desired images because that comes straight from the heart. They can struggle with shame.

The more well-balanced you are as a person, the trickIer it may be to find your number in the enneagram. Jackie recommends looking for the “loudest voice” in the chart when you are looking for your numbers by evaluating them to your life experiences.

Heart desire: Significance and identity.

Type 2: The Helper

  • They are highly intuitive and emotionally well developed within their interpersonal skills.
  • Sit with your partner if they are a type 2 and see what parts of the enneagram they identify with as this will give you good guidance to see how to support them in a way that will be unique and fully helpful to them.
  • Type 2’s feel like their value comes from helping people, and that is the way they can be loved.
  • Type 2’s repress their minds, their thinking center. They are usually more in tune with their emotive side than their rational side.

Creating a safe space for them to express their needs is the best way to help them, to remove any space where they may feel shame for saying no. The type 2’s gift of giving and helping needs to be facilitated to curb it backfiring.

If you think of yourself to be part of the Type 2 bracket, consider these questions:

  • Toleration and boundaries
  • How often do you jump into something before asking ‘is this mine to do’?

Type 3: The Achiever

  • They are optimistic, resilient, and inspiring people.
  • They are front and center because they prefer to lead than follow.
  • Type 3s tend to focus on doing rather than being; they tend to ignore their emotions and place all their focus on their actions because they feel their worth is rooted in their successes.
  • The lack of vulnerability they have with their emotions tends to cause a mistrust with them, because their repressed center is their heart center.

They are pioneers and CEOS and make good leaders, and we can tell them they can accept unwarranted affection and let their imposter syndrome go.

Type 4: Individualist

  • They do not have feelings, they are feelings; they feel all around and everything.
  • They are passionate and forward people.
  • Type 4s have a need to be unique because they want to leave something behind on this world and stand out in a long-lasting way.
  • Type 4s may struggle with jealousy and envy because they want to have what everyone else has, they want to be on par with their peers.
  • Type 4 represses the body center. They would rather deal with their emotions mentally instead of feeling emotions in their bodies.

Type 4s may feel that they lack something compared to everyone else and therefore this need to be unique is incredibly powerful.

They have a large fear of being misunderstood but they still want people to try because they want to be needed and be unique, wanted yet untouchable. Type 4s are able to deal with sorrow although be sure to carry and work both with sorrow and joy, not just one.

Let Jackie know that you heard her on this podcast and get a $30 discount on your first consult.

Are you ready to find the freedom to be yourself as a beta male? Do you want permission and tools to be your best beta? Are you ready to join the revolution to find strength as a beta? If you want to be comfortable in your skin and be the most authentic beta male, then our free beta revolution course is for you. Sign up for free.

Useful links:

Meet Billy Eldridge

billy-eldridge

Meet Billy, the resident beta male. For Billy, this is a place to hang out with other beta males and the people who love them. We’re redefining what beta males look like in the world. I have learned to embrace my best beta self, and I can help you to do the same. As a therapist, I understand the need to belong. You belong here. Join the REVOLUTION.

 

Meet Brandy Eldridge

brandy-eldridge

Hello, Beta friends. I am an alpha personality who is embracing the beta way of life. I feel alive when connected with people, whether that is listening to their stories or learning about their passions. Forget small talk, let’s go deep together. Come to the table and let’s have some life-changing conversations.

 

Thanks for listening!

Did you enjoy this podcast? Feel free to leave a comment below or share this podcast on social media! You can also leave a review of the Beta Male Revolution Podcast on iTunes and subscribe!

Podcast Transcription

[BILLY]:
Beta Male Revolution is part of the Practice of the Practice Podcast Network, a family of podcasts seeking to change the world. To hear other podcasts like the Bomb Mom podcast, Imperfect Thriving, or Empowered and Unapologetic, go to practiceofthepractice.com/network.

Merry Christmas, Beta Male Revolution, this is our gift to you, this series on the enneagram with Jackie Coban. A Christmas gift you could get back to us would be rating and reviewing on Apple iTunes, you see how I did that, that little thing there? It just helps us out a little bit in promoting the podcast if, if you feel so inclined. Also, if you’re looking for counseling services, the holidays can be a tough time, as much as they can be a wonderful time. If you’re looking for counseling services, that’s something I do offer in my day job through Olive Tree Counseling, at olivetreetxk.com. I am licensed in three states so I can do therapy and teletherapy through those states and outside areas, we have developed quite a network of people we work with and we connect others with, so reach out to us.

Also, Jackie has a gift for us, $30 off an individual typing session. Now even if you already know your type on the enneagram it helps to get with an individual and take a deep dive and looking into your internal workings. And so there’s nothing quite like figuring out your number and going deeper with your number with another live human being. The tests are great but I’m just gonna have to say they come in second to working with an individual who’s committed and devoted their life to understanding the enneagram. So reach out to Jackie and get that $30 off. And here we go.

[BRANDY]:
Welcome back, Jackie. We’re just gonna get into the center of intelligence, is that what I call it? Or the intelligence centers? I don’t even know, but that’s why you’re here today. So I can learn.

[JACKIE]:
Yeah, well, thank you for having me back. Very exciting. They’re called the centers of intelligence because some people call them the triads but there are actually so many different groups of three, that different enneagram types, [unclear] tend to be in so centers of intelligence is the best one and we’ll kind of explain why, but yeah, excited.

[BILLY]:
Yeah, we can’t wait.

[BRANDY]:
I think our listeners are excited. Because when we first did this, people were saying to us, we don’t even know what the enneagram is. And then how do I figure out what number I am? And how do I figure it all out? So you’re welcome, listeners, we brought Jackie back.

[BILLY]:
Merry Christmas, this is our Christmas gift to our audience. Because I mean, for me, I know one through nine, and then you get any deeper than that and I don’t know those very well. So this is gonna be so helpful. But you start talking about combinations of things and triads, and I’m totally lost. So just take us on that journey, educate us. Because it’s been such a tool for growth for us. I can’t imagine not going deeper with it wouldn’t be even that more awesome. Let’s, let’s do it.

[JACKIE]:
Yeah, awesome. Well, you’re right, it does, the deeper you get, the more complicated it gets. So I’m really excited to untangle the web a little bit. But I will say that because I don’t like online tests, and when I’m typing someone, while we do figure out people’s types based on their core fear, it’s kind of hard to do that when you’re in a two hour typing session with someone and you’re trying to go through all the nine types and be like, what are you scared of? So what I like to do is I like to ask questions that put them in a certain center of intelligence, and then it narrows it down to three. So there are nine enneagram types and three centers of intelligence, the head, the heart, and the gut, or the instinct center. I like to say instinct, but you know, interchange them. But essentially, the center of intelligence is kind of like the mind right? So you have your brain, but your center of intelligence is your mind. It’s like your source of intuition. It’s how you base your [unclear] ideals. It’s how you hear stories. It’s how you tell stories. It’s how you perceive and give information. It is literally the lens you look through. It’s your reaction point. So today, I’m excited to talk about the heart center, because when you can narrow down your center of intelligence, I’m a head person, I’m a heart forward person, I’m just a reactor, I’m an instinct person, when you can narrow that down, figuring out your enneagram type is a lot easier than you think it is.

[BRANDY]:
I don’t know how to do that. I think, like, listening to you talk, I thought I knew what mine was, but maybe I’m wrong.

[BILLY]:
Yeah, maybe I am, too. You know, so when you talk about the centers, are there a group of numbers in each center?

[JACKIE]:
Yes, yes. So we can start today with the heart center and the heart center kind of leads with like a feeling function. They use emotional awareness, they perceive how others are responding, they focus on relationships, they focus on creating desired images, right because it’s straight from the heart and they struggle a lot with shame. Every center of intelligence has like a point that they struggle or have beef with. Right? So that is shame for the heart center and the heart center is enneagram numbers two, three, and four. And I will tell you both, I know that you guys have gone through your own journeys and grown a lot. The healthier you get as a human being and the more self aware you get, it actually gets harder to type yourself on the enneagram, to figure out your wing, to figure out your predisposition to certain things, to figure out, you know, all of that stuff. So if you guys are like, I’m scared now, it’s a good thing.

[BILLY]:
Yeah, yeah, cuz you just said a word that probably threw some people off, wing. Oh, my gosh, I just [unclear] a number. Now I need a wing. Now we got shame.

[BRANDY]:
Well, shame. I mean, like, who doesn’t relate to shame? So everybody listening right now is like, well, that’s me.

[JACKIE]:
Right. And, like through the human experience, we all relate to everything. We literally all relate to everything. And I think it’s important to know like, but what’s the loudest voice, right? Like, I have struggled with, like, okay, for example, and I know, we’ll go over this, but like, the head center usually deals with anxiety. And the body center usually deals with anger. So I’ve dealt with all of those things. But for me, the loudest and most consistent voice in my life has always been shame. And I will say this, too, I don’t I don’t typically talk about this. But each center of intelligence tends to have a desire behind that core thing, right, that anger or shame or anxiety. For the heart center, their desire is significance and identity. So if you look at the three enneagram types, the two, the three, and the four within the heart center, regardless of their motivations, and core fears being different, that kind of remains the same, because they’re heart forwards. So it’s actually really interesting. And as we get into it, there are centers of intelligence, because we will use all of them, right? We’re human beings, like we’re gonna, we’re gonna go for our gut instinct, if someone like, makes fun of our friend, I don’t care if your heart forward, right. But we all have centuries of intelligence that we repress. So it’s actually very interesting to narrow it down that way.

[BILLY]:
Yeah.

[BRANDY]:
You keep saying heart forward. Can you explain what that means?

[JACKIE]:
Yeah, so heart forward. And when I discuss the other ones, I’ll say like, gut forward or mind forward, but really heart forward is, that is the first thing I’m putting out there. So when you, like, if you think about how people describe different people, you’d be like, oh, they’re so kind. Or they’re so smart, or they are just so strong. And the first kind of adjective type of words that describe a person typically talk about their center of intelligence. And it’s not that they’re not the other things. It’s the most forward thing about them.

[BRANDY]:
Got it. Okay. What’s next? We just go into the, the places of that, the numbers of those?

[JACKIE]:
Yeah, absolutely. So what I’ll do is I will talk about the three different types that are in the center of intelligence, the enneagram two, and then I’ll go through that, and then we’ll talk a little bit about that, and we’ll dissect it. And we’ll do the same for three and four.

[BRANDY]:
All right, I’m excited to learn.

[JACKIE]:
I’m excited to talk to you guys about it. So fun. And it’s so the one other thing I’m most excited about is talking about the anchor points. So I’ll tell you about that in a second [unclear].

[BRANDY]:
Sounds interesting. I’ve never heard that, the anchor points.

[JACKIE]:
Yes, and it is the most, I think, one of the most overlooked things in the enneagram and it’s very important. So.

[BRANDY]:
Okay, I’m taking notes.

[JACKIE]:
Okay, you guys ready to talk about the helper?

[BRANDY]:
Yes.

[BILLY]:
Let’s do it. The helper.

[JACKIE]:
The best enneagram type out there. Just kidding.

[BRANDY]:
Jackie, now tell me what you are again, isn’t it two?

[JACKIE]:
I might be a two.

[BRANDY]:
I’m kind of glad you’re starting off with the two because you’re going to give more insight to it on this one, probably, for the twos listening and starting with it than any of them I think.

[JACKIE]:
Yeah, well, let’s see. I mean, I try to take everything into consideration when giving, you know, these things. I’m actually going through a bit of the training that I do in workplaces and with clients. So this is a real gift, a real Christmas gift to your listeners.

[BRANDY]:
Aw, thank you.

[JACKIE]:
I was like, you know what, I want to give them the best. I don’t want to just glaze over. So.

[BRANDY]:
Oh, thanks, Jackie. You’re so kind.

[JACKIE]:
I’m very heart forward. Thanks for noticing. Okay, so I will say this and I didn’t write this part of it, this was from somebody else. But I ever heard that twos are the human embodiment of good, right, like the the, the Mr. Rogers of all of all your people. They’re highly intuitive and really incredibly developed within their interpersonal skills and they will draw gold out of people. They will draw the best out of people. They really are helpers, right? They’re the people I think I said this previously, but if you’re at a dinner party, they’re not leaving till the dishes are done and if you don’t let them touch the dishes, because they’re a guest, they’re gonna stand beside the sink and talk to you until the dishes are done. That’s what we do. And so when you’re talking about someone who practices self care, right, they know full well, if they’re a self aware person, it’s not me first, it’s me also, right? Well, for the enneagram two, they don’t think of that at all. They think that if it’s me at all, it’s me first, and that doesn’t sit well with us.

[BRANDY]:
I don’t understand that, Jackie. Can you explain that a little bit?

[JACKIE]:
Yeah, absolutely. So if you’re practicing self care, and you have to say no to an engagement, or you have to say, you know what, like, I really can’t help you move at 6am on a Saturday because I need res, that’s not saying me first, it’s saying me also, I care for myself too. Twos don’t do that, any type of self care or inward reflection or taking care of yourself immediately feels like the most selfish thing in the world. It feels like me first. And that doesn’t work. So you know that airplane rule of putting your own mask on before you help somebody else?

[BRANDY]:
Yeah.

[JACKIE]:
Now, I remember being a little girl actually, flying to Mexico for vacation with my family and thinking I could never put it on myself first, like, I was eight. And so it’s just interesting that that ends up being the correlation there.

[BILLY]:
So what kind of feeling does that manifest in you? Like when you have to take care of yourself first? Is it anxiety, fear? What…?

[JACKIE]:
I think it’s a little bit of everything regarding panic, there’s a little bit of panic that arises. It’s actually, so funny story, last night, I was on the way home from Philly with my partner. And I was like, oh, man, I could go for a coffee. And we’re on the highway and he’s like, oh, Starbucks, he literally just makes a right. And I was like, are you gonna get anything? And he was like, no, I’m okay. And I was like, you know what, I’m good. Actually, I don’t think we need coffee. Like, I’m good. I can just power through it. And he and he looked at me, he’s like, you have to stop doing that. I was like, doing what? He’s like, you have to stop thinking that just because I don’t want the same things as you that they’re inconvenient. I’m like, no, I can’t. It’s a gut reaction to feel like, you’re like, you’re selfish, because you don’t really know how it really applies to other people.

And I know that really, that Billy, that might be perking your ears up because you’re a nine. But it’s a completely different motivation. Because with the type two, it’s, well, I have this need to be helpful, I have this need to be strong all the time, and be the person that you can rely on. And if I have needs that make me look like a human, you’re not going to trust me enough or think I’m strong enough or think I can handle what you throw at me. And I want to be available to say yes to you all the time. So I want to make it look like I’m gonna make your life easier all the time. So after much debate, I did get a coffee.

[BRANDY]:
So there’s hope. There’s hope for the twos.

[BILLY]:
And that’s, that’s one thing we want to cover. And I know you’ll highlight it for each number and group. But how do we, when we’re in a relationship with any particular number, when we’re in a relationship with a two, how do we tend to them, care for them? And I guess a lot of it depends on what number we are. But you know, what way do they need to be approached? How do we engage with them, to encourage them to take care of themselves? Sounds like that was a perfect example the other night with a coffee, like, go get yourself a coffee.

[JACKIE]:
Yeah, that’s a great question. And I’m assuming that like, if you’re asking, you know, how do we take care of our twos that the enneagram is something you discuss in your relationship. So I would say that the first thing to do is like, maybe read a book together, listen to a podcast, whatever, that has to do with the enneagram types and talk about the things that stand out. Because I will say that like, I am not the type of person like I don’t identify with the part of the enneagram two that everyone says like, they never say no, I I’ve always said no, I feel guilty for it. But I’ve always been able to say no, and for me being two has been I have to put my needs on the backburner because they’re not as important. So I less, I less identify with the helper and more identify with the giver. So sit with your partner, sit with your two or your seven or whoever you’re in relationship with, and talk about the different parts of the enneagram type. And the, I don’t wanna say the stigma, but the map of the type and see what that person identifies with, because that’s how you can see where to love them better. Right? So, you know, if I say yes to helping someone, it’s really not out of obligation, but my partner’s always on the lookout for how much I’m giving. And he’s like, maybe you should take a day off. And I’m like, oh, okay, so that’s a good way to do it, just to see what applies because not everything applies to everyone within each type.

[BILLY]:
Okay, yeah, that makes sense. Thank you so much.

[JACKIE]:
Yeah, of course. So, as we kind of discussed, I think the catch with the type two is like they really believe deep down, and I live to deny this but it’s so true, that they need to be needed or useful in order to be loved. And for them, there’s this there’s this fine line between being loved and being tolerated. And they need to constantly be on the love side. They always think they’re on the tolerated side, but they really need to be on that love side. And so what really happens is when they’re needed by others, that makes them think that that’s where their value is coming from. And they rely on that ability to either be helpful or to give or to just be there in situations to gauge their self worth, right, because we all draw our self worth from a different place, especially if you are in the heart center. And you’re kind of ruled by that shame.

But I mean, knowing all of this, we can’t like, let that bog our heads down and think like, oh, I can’t ask this two for help, because they’re gonna say yes, even if they don’t want to. They have a gift of helping like that’s like if someone told me that I had to go to a party and not help or put an appetizer on a platter to make the host’s life easier, I don’t I don’t know if I could attend, like, it’s just who I am as a person, I can’t, I can’t just exist in a space like that. It’s part of my gift. And sometimes it seems like we have an unlimited amount of time and resources and things like that, obviously, we don’t, but it’s just that they can’t imagine asking for help. So being able to ask your two to help you is going to give them like, it’s going to fuel them because it’s a gift that they have. But helping them create like, creating a safe space for them to speak their needs, is going to help fill their cup in return. Because that’s really hard. Even now, as a person who is in a great relationship, I have great friendships around me, speaking my needs, really has less to do now with how I feel people are going to perceive me and still just battling that inner is this really selfish of me? Have I considered everybody, when having this need? Where if you know what needs are, it’s not about considering other people, it’s about yourself. So that is super important for the twos.

The one thing I will say about twos that I have I take umbrage with because I feel personally victimized by it is there’s a manipulation piece for the two and it’s not manipulation as in what you see in a movie, and you’d call it manipulation, it’s really being able to twist and turn a situation to paint the picture that like, I know you have a need, but I have what you need to fix this. So let me help you. Or I have someone in my life who, you know, I was able to work with them, thankfully, and they would realize our partner was pulling away, they created a situation where that person had to like they kind of really convinced their partner to quit their job. They were like, they’re not treating you well, it’s not good, it’s not your future, so that they could be completely financially dependent on them. And that’s the unhealthy end of the spectrum, right, that’s like the very unhealthy end. And we have worked through that. And then since recommended therapy, because you know, there’s only so much I can do. But it’s one of those things where when you really genuinely feel like your whole source of survival and self worth is within how other people see you as useful or helpful and you have an independent person and you haven’t really dealt with that, your trauma or become a self aware person, you’ll go through great lengths to do anything, right. And so it’s that, you know, that person created that manipulative situation, they manipulated the situation rather, to create the life that they were looking for.

All in all, it’s kind of like, you know, you can see that under the spectrum. And you can talk about something like The Giving Tree, the you know, the book we’ve all read as kids like, the tree gave this and she was very happy. And the tree gave this and the boy was like I’m hungry. And she’s like, here’s an apple, and I’m tired. And so she’s like, cut me down and sit on my stump and all of the stuff. And at the end, the tree was very happy. And we know that if you’re in a relationship like that, like you need to run, but, but we can’t forget that it is a gift of the twos and like any gift, it needs to be facilitated. The gift of giving, the gift of sharing, the gift of helping, it needs to be facilitated and loved out of that person or else it’s gonna backfire. Right?

[BILLY]:
Yeah.

[JACKIE]:
So that’s, that’s the twos in a nutshell.

[BRANDY]:
So just as the goodness is instinctive in people, the helping is instinctive in people, also possibly the enabling is instinctive. Am I hearing that right? And then if we’re healthy, you know, we notice this thing about ourselves. That’s why I really like the enneagram because it doesn’t just give us all the flowery, you’re still helpful. It goes into, yeah, but here’s something that if you’re not watching this, this can become unhealthy.

[JACKIE]:
Absolutely. 100% you’re hearing it correctly. Like I’ll even tell you a couple weeks ago, I was talking to a friend of mine who’s also a coach because you know, I want to make sure I’m the healthiest. So I was talking to her and I remember talking about one thing in particular when it came to my partner and she was like, you know, I love you and I know that you have this gift of helping and of loving, but it just sounds a little bit like, coddling. And when she said the word coddling my mind wants to go to cuddling, because that was so nice. And then I realized what she was saying was that I was really enabling a certain kind of behavior, and not for nothing like, what you allow, you create, I tell all of my twos, as I tell most of my clients is what you allow you create. So if you allow a relationship where you’re constantly enabling and coddling you’re allowing that behavior and creating that behavior in that other person. And so, it really, you did hear that correctly.

The one thing I want to touch on is the repressed center of the type two, because right, we’re heart forward, people, that’s the first thing that we see. But we repress our minds. We repress the thinking center. And that doesn’t mean we never access it. But I am more in tune to my heart and how I feel physically in my body when it comes to like anxiety, shame, holding fret in my body than I am in my mind. Does that make sense?

[BRANDY]:
Yes.

[JACKIE]:
I’m less likely to think through a situation and rationalize, like, maybe he really was tired at 10pm and he’s not secretly mad at me about something, you know what I mean? That kind of thing.

[BILLY]:
Well, and for me, the way I have to frame ideas are like in pictures and people. So what I’m thinking of, unhealthy too, is I’m thinking of codependency. Now, correct me if I’m wrong, I could be…

[JACKIE]:
Correct.

[BILLY]:
Okay. Because often I see parents, or let’s just say, the group I see most often are mothers and sons, and a son that’s involved in addiction, and a mother who is helping to a point it’s not helpful anymore, it’s rescuing, and not allowing natural consequences to come into play.

[JACKIE]:
Yeah, that paints a good picture. And that that’s not to say that every mother with a child who’s struggling with addiction, and wants to be you know, is kind of at their wit’s end and wants to help is a two, but yeah, that is a perfect, I think, picture to paint, that kind of describes the type. We really think and, and hope that we’re being as helpful as we can, but we’re doing more harm than good at times.

[BILLY]:
Okay, thank you.

[JACKIE]:
Yeah, and I think for twos, is like, just something to hear if you feel like you’re identifying as a two is you taking away something from someone that you can never give back when you do for them what they can do for themselves. So it’s really important to allow people to do what they can. And if you have the gifts, the talents, the ability to help that person alongside them. It’s a lot better than taking the reins and having them feel like an incapacitated person.

[BILLY]:
Yeah. Okay.

[BRANDY]:
So if our listeners are are hearing this and they’re thinking I may be a two, then what are just a couple questions before we go into the next one, what are a couple questions that you ask your clients to identify, when they get to this point, that they are identifying with the two, what are the questions you ask them to kind of solidify it?

[JACKIE]:
So some of the questions I like to ask is, well, the first one of the exercises I take all my clients through but I do it mainly for the twos is we talk about tolerations. And you would be surprised when you come across a two, how much they’re actually simply just tolerating. And I don’t think there’s anything in your life except the dentist you should be simply tolerating, you should be excited about everything. So we talk about tolerations. And we talk about how come they’re not boundaries. Some of the other questions I like to ask is, how often do you jump into something before asking yourself is this mine to do? There’s a, you know, a bunch of different ways to go about it. But really, well, what do you need right now? And most of the time, it’s like, I just need a stable relationship. I just need love. I just need this. Instead of being like, you know, I need to work on my mental health, I need, you know, their needs tend to revolve around a person that really looks like they’ve suffered neglect, and perhaps they have in their own heart because they feel like they’re giving, giving, giving, and that’s who everybody thinks they are. So I ask a different, I think a different set of questions based on the client itself like themselves, but yeah, they kind of really revolve around identifying needs, their willingness to help, their boundaries, things like that.

[BRANDY]:
Okay.

[JACKIE]:
You guys ready for the three?

[BRANDY]:
I’m ready for the three.

[BILLY]:
So ready for the three. After what the two did for me, I’m like, mind blown, let’s keep [unclear].

[BRANDY]:
Yeah, I’m writing these questions down too when it comes to the Q&A that we’re gonna do at the end of all of these. I’ve got some questions just from the two that I want to go back to later on when we’ve gone through all the numbers.

[JACKIE]:
Oh, yes. So spicy, okay, so, the enneagram three is called the achiever, the performer, the best, I like all of them, but let’s just say the achiever for now. It’s funny, because I always joke about this in group trainings, especially in corporate America, oftentimes you think you know the type three in your life, and you’re usually wrong. That’s the end of the sentence, you’re usually wrong. Here’s what we do know. They’re really optimistic, resilient people, they have huge dreams, they’re inspiring, they’re go getters, they’re usually dressed to kill, I’ve met maybe one or two type threes that are just like I’ll put on jeans and a T, whatever. My sister is a three. And every time I go over just to make dinner in her apartment, I’m like, why are you wearing that? And she’s like, I just am. And I’m like, okay, all right. Got it.

So they’re usually front and center, they might not like to be the center of attention or constantly volunteer for things. But it tends to be that way, whether it’s, can you take the lead on the project? Or can you be the emcee at the event, or whatever that looks like, they’d rather lead than follow any day, even if it means not getting like attention attention. They really succeed in everything they do, I don’t think, I mean, if they fail, they really airbrush it as success, because I’ve never seen a three fail at anything. So they don’t, they don’t fail, at least not to you, right? They’re really, really good at shapeshifting, too. So they will be anything they need to be, in any environment they need to be in. They’re at a fishing convention, and they need to get sponsors? I fish too. They’re at the golf course, yeah, put-put, whatever the golf terms are, I don’t know any of them. But they’re really, they’re good at shape shifting to be what they need to be. They are multitasking kings, they’re machines, like I could go on for hours, they focus more on doing than being. And that is really where the problems begin for the type three.

They don’t pay attention to their emotions, because emotions tend to get in the way of working hard and doing work and finishing tasks and doing and doing. And why that’s important is they know, deep down that recognition and love are not the same thing. But they still feel that their worth is rooted in their works and their successes. So small example, I know an enneagram type three who literally refuses to log off of work until their manager has logged off to make it look like they are still on till the end. It’s incredible. And I’m like, is that like, are you supposed to do that? And she’s like, no. And I’m like, do they notice you do that? I don’t think so. It’s really that worth that she’s getting from that. The lack of vulnerability that they have ends up causing a distrust with their own hearts and their own emotions. So I’m going to jump ahead for a quick second and talk about their repressed center. Even though they’re in the heart center, their heart is their repressed center. They’re called an anchor point. And the reason is, they don’t have and we talked about the word wing before, but the word wing really just denotes the number to the left and to the right of you. That’s it. It’s not across, it’s not upside down. It’s just the left and the right. And so if it’s the enneagram three, to the left and to the right are two and four, also in the heart center. So it’s an anchor point. So the three not having a wing outside its center is deeply heart forward, however, is so afraid that their emotions will get in the way of their work, and then therefore their worth, that they repress their own heart.

[BRANDY]:
Woah, okay.

[JACKIE]:
So it’s like a walking time bomb of not trusting yourself or trusting your emotions. Yeah.

[BRANDY]:
So the best thing about them is also the worst thing about them.

[JACKIE]:
Yeah, yeah.

[BRANDY]:
Yeah, but it’s not like that with the two and the four because the three is the anchor. So is every, and I’m getting ahead, too, but so is every number like that, that has a wing on each side, the anchor?

[JACKIE]:
Yes, ma’am.

[BRANDY]:
Oh, okay. I’ve never heard this.

[JACKIE]:
Three, six and nine are the anchor points.

[BRANDY]:
Yeah. Okay.

[BILLY]:
It’s like Neo at the end of the Matrix, everything’s starting to make sense. It’s coming together, it’s coming together.

[JACKIE]:
When you were actually talking, or when I first opened and talked about the centers of intelligence, you’re like, I’m rethinking mine. I had a feeling that that might be why because you tend to repress your own, like, the nines repress their own center. So for you to be like, I’m not a gut instinct person. It’s like, that makes a lot of sense.

[BILLY]:
I rethink my number every time you talk about a number other than mine.

[JACKIE]:
That means you’re healthy. That’s good.

[BILLY]:
I get that one, that feels like me.

[BRANDY]:
Well, then I’m just the opposite. Because every time you’re talking about a number, I’m like, no, that’s not me. Nope, not me at all. So I think that’s interesting.

[BILLY]:
Well, one thing was interesting to me is when you talked about how they dressed, I was like, oh my gosh, because people have come into my office before and looked at me like, are you the guy I’m supposed to talk to? Because I have on shorts and flip flops. I’m dressed for comfort. And I’m like the need to dress up, I’m like, I’m not the suit and tie guy. I’ve got his number. You can go see him, but I’m not him. So that made sense. Like, oh yeah. I don’t need to do that. I don’t need to put all that on.

[JACKIE]:
Yeah, exactly. And that’s the thing. It’s really about creating an image, like I talked about before, the heart center, yes, they deal with a lot of shame. But they really want to create a desired image, the two wants to create this image of a person that can constantly be there for your knees, and the three wants to create an image of whatever they feel is going to be the most successful thing in the moment. And one of the things that I think is so hard, especially because they have a huge capacity for depth, and they don’t allow themselves, so they do feelings more than they have feelings. So, you know, like, I, like I said, my sister, and she has grown so much, I have to give her credit, just in case she listens to this and wants [unclear] me later. But she used to do emotions more than have emotions, used to do empathy and understand like, oh, that’s like, that really sucks. I’m so sorry. But like, they’re just words, where now she’ll cry with someone who’s crying or, and, sorry, Tess, sorry, I’m calling you out. But you know, it’s more about now she has feelings. And she understands that they’re not getting in the way of her work, or her success, or her way to the top, or her way to wherever she wants to be.

So I ended the twos this way, but I’ll end the threes this way also, like, we really need them, we need them in our world because we can’t let their you know, their fear of their worth being tied to their works stop them from being them. They’re pioneers, they’re CEOs, they are the people who move your dream forward when you can’t. They’re the people that you know, I’m not a leader, I need to follow. So I want to follow a three if I’m following somebody. So we need them in our lives. And I always tell my threes like you are allowed to accept unmerited and unwarranted and even undeserved love and affection. Don’t let imposter syndrome get the best of you. They do struggle a lot with imposter syndrome. They tend to. And let yourself feel what you’re feeling, it is deeply important to your mental health, to your well being that the dam doesn’t burst in that way.

[BILLY]:
Wow. I love how you highlight each number’s struggle, but you end with their beauty they bring into the world. Because you’re so right, I have a friend, Joe Sanok, that Brandy and I consult with that helps us with the podcast and a guy like me, if I didn’t have a three like him in my life, pushing me to do some things, I wouldn’t do them. I just, it’s like I need to link up and join arms with someone like that. Because the yin and the yang, the balance, creates something better than I ever would alone. So thank you. Thank you for sharing that.

[JACKIE]:
Of course. Of course. Brandy, do you have any questions about the three?

[BRANDY]:
Later. I’ve written them down. I do though, one of them is the difference between the three and the eight. And then one of the questions I have is like the body work that needs to be done in a three, like in therapy, I would think like they need to get in touch with what’s going on in their body. So those are two questions I have for the Q&A session. Awesome. That’s exciting.

[JACKIE]:
Ready for four?

[BRANDY]:
Yeah.

[BILLY]:
I’m so ready for four.

[JACKIE]:
Okay, so like I said, I like to open with a joke. And for the four this is, you know, the one that makes everybody laugh and least offends everybody, which is great. I always tell people, if you have a friend who stubs their toe, hops around in pain, starts cursing and says something like, this is a metaphor for my life, they’re probably an enneagram type four. And I say that to say that, you know, like, obviously, they’re very passionate, they’re dramatic in the best way possible. They have a lot of feelings. They’re sensitive, sentimental. They can be perceived to think as overdramatic at times. And that’s just because they don’t, they don’t find anything wrong with putting to the forefront what they’re feeling, which we consider overdramatic when really it’s just feeling your feelings, right? They, I will say this, and it tends to resonate with all the fours I’ve met with so far. They don’t have feelings, they are feelings. It’s not like, it’s, I don’t know what to sort through in the day because I’m going from one feeling to the next, but it’s feeling all around. They’re not afraid of conflict. They can be intense. They really care about what they care about. So they’re obviously very, very passionate, very forward people.

So the thing about the four that tends to be really, really hard for both the fours and the people around them is that they have a deep fundamental need to be unique and yes, it is a fundamental need. And I don’t like to say the word unique or standout, I don’t know. I’m trying to find another word that does it justice, but it’s not about being the person in a crowd that wears the bright yellow rain boots, right? It’s not just like that. It’s really about leaving their mark on this world, something memorable, something that matters, and if they’re unique, they will be remembered and if they’re remembered they won’t be forgotten or fade away. So for some it’s about I want to stand out, and I want to keep this person near me, and I want their eyes to be on me at all times, so that I’m not forgotten. But also there’s that, and I think it has to do with the five wing to be honest, but a little bit of that existential, I need to do something, I need to leave my mark, or I’m just gonna fade away. I’m not gonna leave my imprint.

They feel that something important and essential is lacking in them. Like, it’s like that, it’s like when you look at everybody else, and it’s not like, oh, they have it all together. But it’s like, they have everything they need to be who they are and I don’t, something is missing in me. And it’s like, I’m aware that something is missing in me. I can’t figure out what it is. And so this need to be unique, obviously, it’s not a joke. I mean, like, funny story, I was talking to a friend of mine who is an enneagram four and she was talking about something, she’s like, am I crazy? And I was like, no, that’s actually really common with other fours. She literally looked me dead in the face and said, what do you mean, other fours? I was like, case in point, obviously.

[BILLY]:
Other fours exist outside of me, what do you mean?

[JACKIE]:
Do they exist? Because they don’t, so. One of the things that the four struggles with is envy. And it’s not that green with jealousy envy, it’s that I can be genuinely happy for you. And still at the same time, I have no idea how come you have that and I can’t? Why did you get a promotion and I’ve been working really hard and I deserve one, like, you deserve one too. But like, how come I can’t have that?

[BRANDY]:
Yeah. What’s so special about you?

[JACKIE]:
Yeah. So if I’m more special, I’ll get the things that I want. But in reality, it’s just it doesn’t work that way. Right? So what is wrong with me, what’s missing in me that I can’t have those things? And one of the things too, that I don’t think enough people talk about is that fours have a huge fear of being misunderstood. And so it’s kind of one of those things where it’s like, you’re never going to understand me, because I don’t understand myself. But I still want you to try because I’m not gonna try. Like, I’m so afraid of being misunderstood that I want to know that you’re trying and that you care enough that I can give it a shot to explain myself.

[BRANDY]:
Wow.

[JACKIE]:
I don’t like to say this phrase but to just make it easier. It’s a lot of like, push pull type behavior.

[BRANDY]:
Well, that makes sense, though. I’m just thinking of people right now. And I know you don’t, we shouldn’t type people but that’s just a really powerful statement. Like, I don’t understand myself enough but I need you to try to understand me. That makes sense.

[BILLY]:
Yeah. So I mean, that’s a good tip, if you’re in relationship with a four, or think you might be. I mean, I think, anyway I can see myself better, or the people I’m in relationship with better you get miles ahead, if you just have that, that way to view people, and how to handle them and handle them with care.

[JACKIE]:
I understand. So my partner, as I said before, I think, is an enneagram five, and he really teeters well between the six and the four wings. But because fives are, and we’ll talk about this in a little bit, but the fives are kind of just there. So when he’s kind of taking on one of his wings, he becomes kind of like those types. And so when I can tell when he’s in his four wing when he doesn’t know how to explain himself, and he feels like it’s weird if he tries, and I’ll say statements that validate in a sense, that I’ll say things like, help me understand so that we can do this together, or help me understand so I don’t accidentally hurt your feelings, help me understand so that I can love you better, help me understand because I respect what you have to say, help me understand. Help me understand. So when you put that, not that we’re putting them on a pedestal. But when you’re saying help me understand you’re saying that I’m neither going to agree nor disagree with you. I’m just trying to understand. So you’re giving them a space to talk about what they’re feeling without being like, well, that’s wrong. Because there is no wrong. It’s help me understand.

[BRANDY]:
Okay. Okay. All right. So two, three and four, heart.

[JACKIE]:
Sorry, I wanted to talk about the repressed center of the four.

[BRANDY]:
Oh, yeah, yeah.

[JACKIE]:
So if we forget that, but let me just say before that, I want to just say two fours out there, because I think it’s really important to leave on a high note with fours. Because while some enneagram types go to different emotions, I think fours feel comfortable sitting in sorrow. And I will say that sorrow is very beautiful, but and I say this to the sevens too, but on the opposite end, people don’t know you until they know you equally in your joy and your sorrow. So when you’re carrying your sorrow around, make sure joy is with you. Your own self acceptance and validation, that is all you need. That’s the only thing you’ve been looking for your whole life. And until you accept and validate yourself and you validate that there’s nothing missing in you, you’ll never feel that anybody else feels that way. And so, the type four represses the body center, they would rather think through what they’re thinking, mainly feel what they’re feeling, than be aware of their body. And that’s kind of out of a need to like self isolate and protect when things are going tough there. And that is the heart center.

[BILLY]:
So here that, fours, there’s beauty in your sorrow and in your joy. Holy shit, that’s good stuff.

[JACKIE]:
I tell my sevens that, so get ready, Brandy.

[BRANDY]:
I’m just listening. I’m not, I’m just listening. I’m listening and learning. Alright, Jackie, well thank you. And we will see you in a little bit to talk another center.

[JACKIE]:
Yes, we will.

[BRANDY]:
All right. Thank you so much.

[BILLY]:
Are you ready to find freedom to be yourself as a beta male? Do you want permission and tools to be your best beta? Are you ready to join the revolution to find your strength as a beta? If you want to be comfortable in your own skin and be the most authentic beta male, then our free Beta Male Revolution course is for you. Sign up for free at betamalerevolution.com/course.

This podcast is designed to provide accurate and authoritative information in regard to the subject matter covered. This is given with the understanding that neither the host, Practice of the Practice, or the guest are providing legal, mental health, or other professional information. If you need a professional, you should find one.

Beta Male Revolution is part of the Practice of the Practice Podcast Network, a network of podcasts seeking to help you thrive, imperfectly. To hear other podcasts like the Bomb Mom Podcast, Imperfect Thriving, or Empowered and Unapologetic, go to practiceofthepractice.com/network.

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