Enneagram Mini-Series: Your Questions About the Enneagram Get Answered with Jackie Coban, Part 5 of 5 | Episode 38

Enneagram Mini-Series: Your Questions About the Enneagram Get Answered with Jackie Coban, Part 5 of 5 | Episode 38

What are some questions you have about the enneagram? Did you know that your number has sub-types? How can becoming familiar with these nuances deepen your understanding of both yourself and your loved ones?

In this podcast episode, Billy and Brandy Eldridge speak with Jackie Coban who answers some of your questions about the Enneagram.

Meet Jackie Coban

Jackie Coban is an Enneagram & Life Coach: Episode 14

Jackie is a triple-certified coach in Life Coaching, Enneagram Coaching, and Neurolinguistic Programming. She is the founder of Table For 9 Coaching and the host of the Table for 9 podcast. She is a quick-witted, passionate, fire-cracker woman whose personal philosophy is that it IS possible to see people win in life, love, and work.

Jackie is a coach who works with various individuals and groups to help them embrace who they are and what they bring to the table, no pun intended. She is well-balanced in where she has worked: law offices, anti-sex trafficking movements, the non-profit sector, human resources, finance, and the like. She had one thing in common in all places: the pull to “make it work” for everyone. After leading 5+ teams simultaneously at a non-profit organization, she realized what everyone brought to the table was truly different and equally valuable, and she wanted other people to see it, too.

Visit Jackie’s website and connect on Instagram. Listen to her podcast here.

In This Podcast

Summary

  • Is it okay to type your friends?
  • How to find your number in the three that you’ve narrowed it down to?
  • Arrows: where do people go when healthy or unhealthy
  • For my number, how do I move towards health?
  • How can people be the same number yet look different?

Is it okay to type your friends?

Usually, Jackie is against typing people other than yourself, however, if you are confident that you have a clear and strong understanding of all 9 enneagram types, their traits, downfalls and you are close enough to that person to make a decision based on their sincere motivations, try this:

  • Say to them: here is my thought, here is why, and here are some examples, take a test and we’ll look at it together, and only then will I type you.

How to find your number in the three that you’ve narrowed it down to?

Jackie recommends either then reading some books or finding a qualified coach to guide you through the rest of the process. A specifically trained person can pull out the distinct meaning from your language and life experience that you may otherwise miss.

Arrows: where do people go when healthy or unhealthy

What those arrows are is where you go in stress and health. Now, if you are a certain enneagram type, you don’t become the other number – same with wings – you are your number. When you’re healthy, you take on healthy attributes of a different type, and when you’re unhealthy you take on unhealthy attributes of a different type. (Jackie Coban)

Where numbers go when healthy or unhealthy:

  • Type 1: in stress, they take on unhealthy attributes of type 4 and become moody and irrational. When they are healthy, they take on healthy attributes of type 7 and they embrace more and allow more room for fun.
  • Type 2: in stress, they take on aggressive, cut-throat unhealthy habits of type 8. In health, type 2 goes to type 4 and become more emotionally aware and nurturing.
  • Type 3: in stress, they act like unhealthy type 9s, becoming disengaged, apathetic. In health, they go to a healthy type 6 and become more cooperative.
  • Type 4: in stress, they go to an unhealthy type 2 and become clingy, codependent. In health, they go to type 1 and become more objective and stable.
  • Type 5: in stress, they act like an unhealthy type 7 and afraid of commitments. In health, they go to type 8 and become more confident and decisive.
  • Type 6: in stress, they go to type 3, they become arrogant. In health, they go to type 9 and become more relaxed and release control.
  • Type 7: in stress, they go to type 1 and become more critical and stressed. In health, they go to type 5 and become focused and grounded.
  • Type 8: in stress, they go to type 5 and become secretive and go into hiding. In health, they go to type 2 and become more open-hearted and caring.
  • Type 9: in stress, they go to type 6 and become more anxious and overthink. In health, they go to type 3 and are more self-developing and energetic.

For my number, how do I move towards health?

It is a sliding scale of unhealthy on one side, average in the middle, and health on the other side. To get to the healthy side, you have to do work and work with your unhealthy habits. It is not enough to simply not be unhealthy to be healthy, one needs to fully deal with and work with the unhealthy trait to fully become more stabilized and healthier.

To really be healthy, you have to address the ‘why’ behind the unhealthy.

How can people be the same number yet look different?

This is because of sub-types.

The sub-types, some people call them instinctual variants, they are three different types of your type … if you were an enneagram 1, you could be a social 1, a self-preservation 1 or an intimate 1. (Jackie Coban)

Self-preservation is me. Intimate is us. Social is all of us. You can have a mix of these, however, one will be more dominant than the others.

Let Jackie know that you heard her on this podcast and get a $30 discount on your first consult.

Are you ready to find the freedom to be yourself as a beta male? Do you want permission and tools to be your best beta? Are you ready to join the revolution to find strength as a beta? If you want to be comfortable in your skin and be the most authentic beta male, then our free beta revolution course is for you. Sign up for free.

Useful links:

Meet Billy Eldridge

billy-eldridge

Meet Billy, the resident beta male. For Billy, this is a place to hang out with other beta males and the people who love them. We’re redefining what beta males look like in the world. I have learned to embrace my best beta self, and I can help you to do the same. As a therapist, I understand the need to belong. You belong here. Join the REVOLUTION.

 

Meet Brandy Eldridge

brandy-eldridge

Hello, Beta friends. I am an alpha personality who is embracing the beta way of life. I feel alive when connected with people, whether that is listening to their stories or learning about their passions. Forget small talk, let’s go deep together. Come to the table and let’s have some life-changing conversations.

 

Thanks for listening!

Did you enjoy this podcast? Feel free to leave a comment below or share this podcast on social media! You can also leave a review of the Beta Male Revolution Podcast on iTunes and subscribe!

Podcast Transcription

[BILLY]:
Beta Male Revolution is part of the Practice of the Practice Podcast Network, a family of podcasts seeking to change the world. To hear other podcasts like the Bomb Mom podcast, Imperfect Thriving, or Empowered and Unapologetic, go to practiceofthepractice.com/network.

Hello, Beta Male Revolution. 2020 has been a bit of a shit show if I say so myself. And we’re about to embark upon 2021. And what better way to end it than with our good friend Jackie Coban and doing enneagram work, going deep into ourselves, because whatever’s going on in the world around us, means very little, when you’re okay, on the inside, when…

[BRANDY]:
Well, I think you’re just able to handle it better when you’re okay, on the inside. And, and during COVID and on 2020, it seems like hour to hour, your emotions can be different. And I, I would say to everyone, let 2020 go, like we’ve all been through this pandemic or in this pandemic. I mean, everything else that can go wrong this year has gone wrong. And we just let it go. We don’t know what next year is going to be like, but by God, we are going to be enneagrammed up and able to handle it. So this this episode is Jackie answering questions that some of you sent in to us, some of the questions we had, and then just all of the above, but I really enjoy Jackie, I really enjoyed her depth, her knowledge, her wisdom. I’m excited that we get to answer some of these questions selfishly, and then I’m excited that we get to do some more work on ourselves in the sense of permission to be okay, permission to not be okay. And and to appreciate the things about ourselves and learn how to integrate a little better. If all that doesn’t make sense, it’s okay. I don’t know what I’m talking about half the time.

[BILLY]:
Hey, Brandy. I’m glad I get to do this next year with you. I hope we make it.

[BRANDY]:
Right now, I feel the same way. You know, an hour from now it may be different but we are going to get into the beginning of the year. Our reflection on this past year and moving forward. And we’ll talk more about that. But in the meantime, enjoy the wonderful, beautiful, sensational Jackie Coban.

[BILLY]:
Beta Male Revolution. It’s Q&A time with Jackie. Jackie, how are you doing?

[JACKIE]:
I’m good. How are you guys doing?

[BILLY]:
Yeah.

[BRANDY]:
Welcome back, Jack.

[BILLY]:
Merry Christmas to our audience. We’re right in the middle of it all. And you’re just gonna get to hear some of your questions answered today about the enneagram. So thanks so much for hanging out with us again, Jackie.

[BRANDY]:
Yay.

[JACKIE]:
[Unclear] be here.

[BRANDY]:
We have a list of questions from our listeners and then from ourselves. So I don’t want to put you on the spot. But I know how good you are on the spot. And I’m just gonna dive right in if that’s okay.

[JACKIE]:
Heck, yeah, let’s do it.

[BRANDY]:
Alright, so the first question we have from a listener is that their friend wants them to type them. And they think it’s obvious. Is it okay to tell them? And if so, why? If not, why not?

[JACKIE]:
Oh, that’s a good one. Okay, so typically, I am completely against typing people. So, as a coach, people come up to me, and they’re like, what do you think I am? And I’m like, I don’t know and I don’t care. But I will say this, if the if the listener is confident, excuse me, he or she is confident enough in being able to understand every single enneagram type, their motivations, and is also equally close enough with that person where they can make an assessment based on those motivations and the other person’s asking a lot. This is what I would do. I would say, here is my thought, here is why, here are some examples, then I’ll only do this, right, if you take a test or read a book after so we can confirm it and look at it together, then and only then will I type you.

[BRANDY]:
Yeah, I think that’s good. I’ve had friends ask me that. And I would say, well, off the bat, this is what I would think you are. But you’re the only one that can know that. So here’s why. And then just use that as a starting point. Like I never say like, you know, I think you’re an eight, you’re an eight. I’ve done that before early on. And it was, you know, just not understanding it. But I always like to say this is a starting point, because I thought I was a number for a really long time and it wasn’t until I started studying it that I figured out who I really was. And that’s what helped me.

[JACKIE]:
Especially because types can be so similar. So I know someone who for a long time and I’m going to use this word very sparingly, but like was dangerously typing everybody around them based on what they knew about them. You cannot do that. So this person was like no, no, no. Susie, who’s one of my clients is definitely an enneagram five, because she is so smart and she’s so meticulous and so well researched. I sat with Susie for less than half an hour, and she’s an enneagram one. So say that to say, it’s really hard to know, but if you know that person, you’re like, well, I’ve seen you through the brunt of your life, I saw you through your divorce and I realized that you really don’t like conflict. Here are some other things I noticed. And because of that, I think that you might be a nine, let’s take a test and find out. Let’s read a book and find out. Um, so you’re a one because you’re organized. Get out of here with that, get out of here. Don’t do that. But if you have some stuff to back it up, absolutely.

[BILLY]:
Yeah. So you do typing sessions, correct, Jackie?

[JACKIE]:
Yes, sir.

[BILLY]:
Okay, and you are offering $30 off if they mention Beta Male Revolution.

[JACKIE]:
I absolutely am.

[BILLY]:
Props, props. But I’ve heard often from not just you, many people, that doing a typing session versus taking a test tends to be a little more accurate. Why is that? You know, just the generated test we have online?

[JACKIE]:
Yeah, absolutely. So if you take a test, and I always joke about this one, but if you if you take a test, like what pasta are you, from BuzzFeed, they’re gonna ask you a series of questions that maybe represent each pasta, right? So are you wild, you’re probably rotini. But that kind of thing. It’s simple black and white and for fun. With the enneagram it’s not that black and white. It’s based on core motivations that are hidden from us. They’re deep seated. We have spent our whole lives protecting ourselves from the things that we fear. So it’s not really easy to be like, oh, to go back to my previous example of one and five being really similar, a test online might say, do you value information? Both would answer yes. Do you fear looking foolish? Both would answer yes. But none of those questions are asking why? No one’s asking why, no one’s asking, where did that start? No one’s asking what was the first time you did, like, when was the first time you remember doing that? No one’s asking those deep questions. So a lot of times, I will have typing sessions where we’re even typing for center of intelligence or anything like that, and, and my why leads them back into a circle where they’re like, oh, I’ve only been doing that for the last year. That’s not my answer. And they don’t even realize it. So I think that there’s a huge difference with a typing session, because there’s somebody across from you, helping you dissect different experiences in your life that lead you to an answer that you probably would not have thought of off the bat when you’re taking a 60 question quiz online.

[BILLY]:
Yeah, well and here’s a question that goes along with that. And I know Brandy and I, over the course of the past few weeks of episodes we’ve done with you, we’ve mentioned this. And so our good friend, Joey Elliot, she has a half a number. But is it really my number? And I’ve kind of wondered that, because here’s how I came to nine. And I’m, like, began to question. And I feel like and I don’t know, but it originally started from a selfish motivation. Because I listened to Mike McHargue, with The Liturgists. And he wrote a book called Finding God in the Waves. And I related so much to that book, and he was a nine. So I started looking into nines. And I really liked him as a human being. And I kind of wanted to be a nine because he was a nine. And then I’m like, well, I might have gone about that the wrong way. I have a number. Is it really my number?

[BRANDY]:
Yeah, and a lot of people get stuck with like, I’ve narrowed it down to three numbers. How do I find out which one I really am?

[JACKIE]:
Yeah, honestly, that’s where reading a book or talking to a coach comes in handy. My recommendation is always a coach. But really because they are so similar. And if you don’t have these, like a trained person to distinctly pull out your language, and be like, this is the difference between all three of these things. This is the statement that makes the difference. Because I’ve talked about this previously, I’m not sure if it’s on this podcast or another, but I was tied pretty equally between two six and eight on online quizzes. Like, every time it was either 2, 6, 8, 2, 6, 8, 2, 6, 8 and I was like, oh my god, like I can’t do this. And when I started reading the books, I was thankfully in a self aware enough place where I was like, okay, it’s between two and eight. And then when I read when I really read the two, I was like, oh, shit. But now as a coach, what I’ve done is with my typing sessions is develop different questions, different listening practices, where when somebody says certain statements, it almost triggers me to be like, wait, stop, right there, dissect that, or explain why about that, because that’s what’s going to set it apart. Because it really is about motivations and deep rooted things that we hide from ourselves. When you’re confused by different types, it’s usually based on things that are either noticeable by surface level or things that only you know, in your head that you do. Not really those deeper motivations

[BILLY]:
I’m gonna reveal a fear. I’m afraid that if I do a typing session, I might be a six.

[BRANDY]:
Maybe you should do a typing session.

[JACKIE]:
Or you could be very stressed out all the time, and you go to six under stress.

[BRANDY]:
Oh, that’s my next question.

[JACKIE]:
Go for it.

[BRANDY]:
Okay, so, talk to me about the arrows and where people go when they’re healthy and where people go when they’re unhealthy. Because I think some of that may clarify some of the misconceptions about numbers and then misconceptions about ourselves.

[JACKIE]:
Oh, my gosh, yes, absolutely. So those arrows are really confusing for people. And I totally understand why. What those arrows are, are where you go in stress and health. Now, if you are a certain enneagram type, you don’t become the other number. Same with wings, like you don’t become a different number, you are your number. When you’re healthy, you take on healthy attributes of a different type. And when you’re unhealthy, you take on unhealthy attributes of a different type. But that’s like take on, you don’t turn into them. That’s literally like what you were saying before, the nine tends to look a little bit like stays a nine, acts like a nine but also looks a little bit more like an unhealthy six when they’re stressed. So it’s a little bit of a melding or a combination. So do you want me to go through all the nine?

[BRANDY]:
Yeah. And then would you do the seven?

[BILLY]:
Well, one thing I want to mention in just listening, this, this can sound quite confusing, but one thing I like about your extra set of content, Jackie, is often you create infographics on your Instagram and your Facebook that simplify these concepts. So you know, people, what is your Instagram? Is it Table for 9…?

[JACKIE]:
Coaching. It’s F-O-R and the digit nine.

[BILLY]:
Yeah, so people can hop over there and then add some. I’m a visual person. So when I add a graphic to it, like, here’s where you go, that helps me so much. But go ahead.

[BRANDY]:
She was saying, I misunderstood, you said do you want me to go through all nine? And I thought you meant like the number nine. But you said you’re gonna go through all nine of them.

[JACKIE]:
All the nine. Yeah, and I’ll do them quickly.

[BRANDY]:
Yeah, let’s do it.

[BILLY]:
It’s Christmas. Let’s give them a gift.

[JACKIE]:
Merry Christmas. Okay, so the enneagram type one, we know that they’re like really principled, really organized really, like very just so, and when they’re stressed out, if you remember from the last episode, I mentioned that they’re almost inconsolable, they’re not themselves when the dam bursts? Well, when they’re stressed out, they take on the unhealthy attributes of the four. So while they’re usually methodical and orderly, they can become really moody and irrational. Right, and I’m not saying fours are moody and irrational. Everyone has a healthy and unhealthy spectrum. So the unhealthy spectrum of the four is what the one takes on. In health, they go to a type seven, which basically means that they can embrace more, they allow more room for fun, for spontaneity, they carry joy with them like a healthy seven.

The enneagram type two and probably why I kept thinking I was an eight because I was a traumatized little chick was, in stress enneagram twos go to type eight. So after a long time of self abnegation and putting themselves on the backburner twos tend to take on the the aggressive, the dominating, the cutthroat, the I’m going to stomp on the ice and I hope you drown in it like type of type of mentality, because it’s like I’m sick of this already. In health, the type two goes to a four, they normally would have self abdicated, but when they’ve embraced health, they become a lot more emotionally aware, self nurturing, and they become like healthy fours, they’re creative, and they’re just more go with the flow.

Type threes in stress, they can act like nine so they have that striving perfection mentality. But under stress, they can take on the attributes of an unhealthy nine becoming a little bit more disengaged, apathetic. If I’m sitting on this couch, you’re not moving me unless you get a crane in here type of attitude. When they’re healthy, they will go to a type six, they become a lot more cooperative, they become committed to others and they don’t really take on that lone wolf persona anymore.

The enneagram type four under stress goes into a two so in the stress of kind of, I guess trying to like recover from what they feel like oh, something is missing in me, they can take on the unhealthy attributes of the type two and they can get over involved in other people’s lives, become really clingy, really codependent on other people and feel like their strength comes from that. For health, they go into a type one. So typically being the envious type of person they’ll actually, instead of being emotionally turbulent, for lack of a better phrase, they’ll become more objective, they’ll become principal, they’ll become a little bit more organized and stable.

The enneagram type five in stress acts like an unhealthy seven. So typically fives are level headed, but under stress, they can become scattered, hyperactive and, and kind of unpredictable and afraid of hard and fast commitments. Sorry, my, my partner is a five so I read that I’m like, okay. And in health, beautiful fives, they go to a type eight. So typically, the kind of person who is like, you know, not as confident and doesn’t need knowledge to make decisions, can’t really rely on themselves for it, they become a lot more confident and a lot more decisive. And they’ll put their foot down.

Sixes in stress, they go to type three. So while they’re typically loyal, very dutiful, under stress, they can become kind of how threes are, that lone wolf, they can become competitive and sometimes even arrogant, but when they’re healthy, they go to a nine anxious sixes, who’s you know, heads are all over the place, their thinking can be scattered and, and, you know, trying to figure out if everything’s gonna be okay at all times, they become more relaxed, optimistic, and they don’t really need to have control all the time.

Type sevens, under stress, they go to type ones. So under stress or pressure, a typically light hearted seven will suddenly become very critical, they’ll become a little bit more of a perfectionist, and they’ll constantly feel like their work is a reflection of them. And keep that you know, that imaginary measuring stick going. But in health, they go to a five, even though they can indulge and be here and be there and kind of all over the place, when they’re really in health they become focused and grounded, well researched, well spoken and stable, like type fives.

An enneagram type eight, in stress, they go to five. So typically, they’re self confident, but when they’re stressed, they’ll become secretive, they’ll go into hiding, they’ll withdraw, they’ll need more time and energy hoarded around themselves to feel like they can survive. In health though they go to a two so typically they don’t want to show their vulnerable side or show any kind of weakness but they become more open hearted in health and caring like the healthy two.

And lastly, the type nine in stress, like we were talking about Billy, they go to a type six. So typically a nine is like content, complacent, but under stress, they take the anxious and worried qualities of the type six, they take those overthinking qualities to the next level. And then in health, they go to a three, so nines who, you know, typically would fall asleep to themselves or to their needs, the healthier they become they are more self developing and energetic like healthy threes, but they still maintain themselves, that peaceful demeanor.

[BILLY]:
Wow. We’re just throwing out content today. That’s good stuff.

[JACKIE]:
We just are. I just gave you guys all my secrets.

[BILLY]:
Well, and we’ll go a little bit deeper because another one of our friends, Brittany Carter. She just recently opened with some friends Thrive Yoga here in Texarkana, Texas. So if you’re here, go check out Thrive Yoga. She’s a buddy of ours. And she says, I like learning about the best self care and development practices for my number. And then another easy question about how my number can relate in healthy ways to the numbers of those closest around me. That could be a whole episode on its own, but when you were talking earlier about unhealth and health, I think that’s the overarching theme and the desire from the question is, for my number, how do I move towards health? How do I get out of the stuck phase and get better? What do I do?

[JACKIE]:
That’s actually, so it’s a little bit difficult, and I hope I don’t disappoint but I think when you’re looking at health and unhealth and stress and whatever it really is like a sliding scale. You know, like I look at those sliding scales of like one to 10, but like unhealth is on one side, average is in the middle and complete, perfect Nirvana health is on the other, and it’s a sliding scale that kind of teeters and totters a little bit. But really, to get to the healthier side, I would obviously recommend working with a coach but you have to undo all of the work that at one time in your life, you were on all different sides of the scale, and attribute time to them, motivation to them, why to them, childhood wound to them, all that stuff to heal. You can’t really be in the healthiest place of your life just by moving away from unhealthy habits.

It’s kind of like I have an NLP certificate. And typically what I teach people when it comes to their brain is it’s not enough to just listen, if you’ve called yourself stupid every day for the last 20 years of your life, and you woke up on your 21st birthday, and you said, I’m not going to call myself stupid anymore. It’s not enough to do that. Because your brain already thinks that that’s reality. Everything that you see in your life outside of that is going to be from the lens of I’m stupid. So everything that you see as an enneagram type, you see from a specific lens, a core fear. And if you’ve in that core fear done unhealthy behaviors, or average behaviors that are not really perfect health, something has resulted from that, there’s a coping mechanism out of that, there’s something in your brain that really wires that as reality and it’s about unworking all of those things, and talking about different options and what could have been done to really get yourself into a freedom mindset to walk towards health. So to really be healthy, simplified enough to be healthy, you have to address the why behind the unhealthy. And go deep.

[BILLY]:
So go deep with someone one on one. What was the certification you were talking about?

[JACKIE]:
NLP. It’s neuro linguistic programming.

[BILLY]:
Ah. Love neuro linguistic programming. It’s good stuff.

[BRANDY]:
I don’t know what that is. Is that just retraining your brain to think a different way? Instead of calling yourself stupid, reframing it and thinking? I mean, is that…?

[BILLY]:
It’s a little deeper than that.

[BRANDY]:
I mean, that’s what I’m asking, like, what is it?

[JACKIE]:
So it’s kind of like I mean, so neuro, your brain, linguistic, your language, programming, your behavior, and it’s the connection between all three and the way that you think, how it leads all of those other things, and how your actions lead those other things and how your language leads those. How each of those individual things impact all three.

[BILLY]:
Yeah. And the person I just mentioned, Brittany Carter, she’s, uh, she’s going through some neuro linguistic programming training.

[JACKIE]:
Go ahead, Brit.

[BILLY]:
Yeah, yeah.

[BRANDY]:
We had Dr. Elia Gourgouris on here. And he’s like a happiness expert, along with many other things. But one of the things he said was, when he does his consulting, and when he goes out and speaks he, he talks about his story of when he was born, and his father said that he was the happy baby.

[BILLY]:
Yeah, he came in the delivery room, his father did, he was a Greek guy. And he came in, he said, which one’s my child? And the nurse said, the one that’s giggling. And from then he got the brand of happy baby. But he said, what if I would have been crying?

[BRANDY]:
Yeah, what if he would have been the baby that was crying at that minute, would he would have, you know, his whole life, he would have heard you were the crying baby, you were the unhappy baby. And so his whole life, he was told you’re the happy baby, and just how that framed his whole life. But he goes and speaks to people. And he said, what have you been told? And let’s change that, let’s begin to change that. I think that’s when I hear what you do, it’s the behaviors, it’s the brain. And it’s, you know, what we tell ourselves and how we have to figure out how to change what we think about ourselves so that our behaviors are different. And isn’t that the whole goal of an enneagram, is just to become healthier? Is that the goal of enneagram?

[JACKIE]:
Well, to be honest, I think the goal of the enneagram is to know yourself, and whatever comes out of that is going to be a beautiful picture of your height of health, right? The more you know yourself, the more you, in an ever changing world, we say that the world is constantly changing now, but it was constantly changing back then to. It’s why we are where we are. And so everything, the only thing that’s stayed sustainable is like us knowing ourselves and keeping sustainable relationships, having a sustainable work life and balance with your friends. I mean, that’s really all about knowing yourself. So that that’s the goal of the anagram is to know yourself and to do it deeply and fully. And whatever comes out of that is just inevitably going to be good.

[BILLY]:
Yeah, I think the phrasing I’ve heard about the enneagram is who were you before the world told you who you were supposed to be? And kind of taking off of some of that stuff and getting to the core of who you’re supposed to be, who you were meant to be. Before all this trauma and dysfunction got layered on top of your true self.

[JACKIE]:
Yeah, absolutely.

[BRANDY]:
I think for me, the enneagram has been many things. But one thing it has been is just permission to be who I am, and not have to worry that I need to change everything about me to fit into what people think I should be. But like, this is who I was born to be, like you said before the world told me who I needed to be and to be okay with some of those characteristics, some of the unhealthy characteristics that I need to work on, absolutely. But knowing that it’s that flipped coin of the sinner and the saint that our friend, Tara Eastman spoke about, Tara Eastman, of just having both the good and the bad. And I even hate using that, but just both sides of a coin that are in all of us and understanding why, like you say, the why behind it. And then loving both sides of those coins. Both sides of it is who I am. And I don’t always have to change who I am.

[JACKIE]:
Absolutely. 100%.

[BRANDY]:
All right, big question. Next question, for all the people that have gone and taken, they’ve all gone and taken the test online, the free test, and they’ve gotten all different numbers. Some of those tests give us the wings, and you’ve spoken about the wing and how it’s on either side of us. But what is the purpose of it? And do you like when I take the test, they all give me different things. But I’ve learned that I’m a seven wing eight. What does that even mean?

[JACKIE]:
Yeah, absolutely. So the wing is the number right next to your number. Or the numbers rather. If you look at the enneagram, it’s kind of like a clock, nines at the top, and then to the right is 123, and so on to ending at eight up to nine. So nine being the base of it. And when you think of it like that, if you look at my number, for example, I’m a two, the numbers to my left and my right are one or three. Now, a lot of people confuse wings with those arrows we were discussing, the stress and health, so people be like, yeah, I’m a two wing eight. And I go, no, you the hell are not. No, but it’s just the left and to your right. So if you think of a bird’s wings, they’re only to the left and to the right. And that’s the best way to describe it, the wings are like a bird’s wings. Essentially, what it is, is they’re attributes next to your number that you take on. Because it is a little bit of a sliding scale. We’re so complex as humans, so it’s kind of like, and this is not my example. But um, it’s like if you have a burger, right? And I can say today I want ketchup on my burger. And or maybe the only thing I want on my burger is ketchup, right? And the burger is still a burger, it doesn’t become ketchup. It’s not only ketchup, it does, it’s not I’m not eating a bowl of ketchup, it’s just an enhanced burger. Now on the other side, I could say I want Mayo, I want both, I want ketchup and mayo, I want special sauce on my burger. And that’s a combination of both, but my burger is still my burger.

So your type as a seven, for example, you are still and always will be a beautiful seven. But your eight is your ketchup. And your six is your mayo. And some people lean towards one the same way they like certain condiments, and you don’t really choose, it’s more of a natural thing. Like I lean towards my one wing without even realizing, if I could, if I had a choice in the matter, I would lean to my three wing. But I don’t. And so I lean to my one wing, but catch me on a certain day in a specific project and I’ve got my three wing going. So some people balance them equally, and they can’t tell what their wing is. And that’s okay. And some people lean more towards one or lean more towards the other or it just depends on the day or the situation. And that’s okay, too. But you’re borrowing attributes. So as a two I am a person that is warm and deeply cares about people. But my principled side, my I have to follow all the rules side, that comes from my one wing. And my if I don’t get this done, I’m going to kill somebody, comes from my three wing sometimes.

[BRANDY]:
That makes sense. And I think that leads me almost to my next question of how can people be the same number and look so different?

[JACKIE]:
Yeah. So that does have to do with the wings. But also that does have to do with subtypes.

[BRANDY]:
Yay, I’m so glad, I’m so glad you’re gonna say that. And I hope that we can dedicate a whole nother episode one time to just subtypes.

[JACKIE]:
Oh, yes. Subtypes are probably one of my favorite things to discuss. Because, a friend of mine, actually, she’s in enneagram two and she is like, people don’t believe that we are the same age or the same enneagram type. But she, I’m an intimate two and she is a self preservation two. And so we look completely different. So essentially, so to give you a little background, the subtypes or some people say instinctual variants, they are three different types of your type. So to make it easier, if you’re an enneagram one, you can be a social one, a self preservation one or some people say sexual or intimate one, one to one one. Really what that means is, okay, think of it like this. Self preservation is me. Sexual is us. Social is all of us. So when you’re thinking about your enneagram as a starting point, you can say that okay, as a one when I think of being perfect or improving the world around me, I think of me first, self preservation. When I think of improvement, it’s in our relationship, that’s sexual. When I think of improvement and reformation, for the greater good of the world, that is social. And you can have a lot of, you know, you can have a mix of it’s not like, you have to only have one of them. Like I’m mainly a sexual two. But I’m also a social two. I very rarely lean on that self preservation.

[BILLY]:
And I believe a self preservation nine. And the way I’ve kind of found that out is I go to comfort like if when we come in at the end of the day, and Brandy and I want to catch up and have a conversation. First, I’m like, well, let’s go to the couch and sit down.

[BRANDY]:
No. Let’s lay down, you will be laying down on the couch.

[BILLY]:
Yes, my favorite place to be is laying down somewhere. And I heard another guy say this, and it made so much sense to me. He said, how I decide whether or not I’m going to go to a concert or not, is whether or not they have a place to sit down. And like, if I’m in the pit and standing up the whole thing, I don’t care how much I love the band, I don’t want to go, I need a place to sit. I don’t know if that makes sense.

[BRANDY]:
Well, Jackie, I hope that you will come back and possibly do a subtype episode, like, I’m not, we’re not done. I just wanted to see if you would do that. Because I do think that once our listeners find out what enneagram type they are, number one, where they go in health and unhealth, and then maybe their wings and how they can flow in and out on either side of the wing, and then getting into what subtype they are. I think that just takes it even deeper and deeper. And then, you know, how we use those, how can we use these to better our relationships? And just going deeper and deeper into the enneagram, hopefully over the years with you.

[JACKIE]:
Yeah, absolutely. And I will say this as a little, you know, teaser tidbit. Every one of the three subtypes is a counter type. So if you are an enneagram type, and you’re like I am this type, but I don’t feel like this type, you might be the counter type. So that’s gonna be a fun thing to get into when we do our subtype episode.

[BILLY]:
It just keeps getting deeper, we’re really getting into the mystery of the enneagram. When I just thought there were nine numbers, and then there’s like this matrix of insanity you can get into.

[JACKIE]:
There’s like over 160 variations of the… and people are like, how do you type people into nine types. I’m like, you don’t, that’s why.

[BRANDY]:
You don’t.

[JACKIE]:
You don’t.

[BRANDY]:
Oh, I can’t wait.

[BILLY]:
It’s not reductionistic. It’s like, there’s a million different ways you could go. Yeah, so for us, Brandy and I, the enneagram has been so helpful in our relationship. And one of the things, I keep a little cheat sheet, and when I use it, things go better. And it is like how to communicate and have conflict with a seven. And it’s like, you know, because I’ve learned things like she longs for adventure, she needs to go, anytime I’m like shutting things down and boxing her in and she feels closed in, no, we can’t do that. No, we’re not gonna do that. And I don’t. I’m like, I have this cheat sheet of don’t do that, that will lead you down a bad road. So I had someone ask us a question. I won’t mention their name. But they said, you know, I’m really into the enneagram, my partner’s not, I feel like it would help our relationship. Is there a covert way? And I know that’s typing someone but when you know, like if I understood them, I could communicate with them better. What do people do when their spouse or their partner is like, you know, that’s crazy bullshit. I’m not doing that. You can do it. But I’m not. I mean, I guess it is what it is. But do you recommend anything?

[JACKIE]:
Yeah, actually, so my partner is not really into the enneagram, actually, and I’m a coach. So it’s interesting. He’s always like, yeah, I’m a 10 or whatever you said, I’m like, five you loser. No, but we joke about it a lot. And when I first got into it, I was pretty aware that after a couple of months of us dating, I was like, okay, I think I’m pretty certain he’s a five. And so one of the things I told him about why I like it is because I said I told him I was like, you know, I used to not be able, I was like you know how I’m like really sweet and kind, I used to not be able to stand up for myself. And the enneagram helped me by pointing out things I didn’t really even know about myself. And he was kind of like, oh, like what, and so I was like, like, how I feel like other people are more important than I am and so on. And so I asked him like, would you want to know your type, but he’s like, yeah, but I don’t like, I don’t know if it all applies to me. And that’s I was like, that’s totally fine, but it’ll help me to understand.

And what we did was we were driving home from Philly. This was about a year or two, or when we first kind of started dating, and we listened to a podcast, the Sleeping at Last podcast that had the you know the two different, or excuse me all nine of the types and so we listened to the two and we listened to the five. Because I was like, I think this is the one that you are. But you can tell me if I’m wrong, and then we can discuss it. And he really aligned with it, he was like this, this doesn’t make sense to me. But the rest of it does or whatever that looks like. And I was like, okay, so now that helps me. So then sometimes I don’t, I don’t bring it up often, it teaches me how to love him better, but also teaches me how to communicate who I am and what I need, in a way that he needs to hear it. So in essence, your partner doesn’t really need to be into the enneagram. But if you can kind of, you know, you don’t want to coerce them, you don’t want to covertly do it, but like, get him to understand or help that person or her to understand that this is what’s going to help me love you the best. You don’t need to do anything with it. Because with every type, you’ll understand that that is the way that the person needs to be loved. And this is how I tell the person I need to be loved in a way that they need to hear it. And that sets the tone for your relationship.

Now, when I see something on Instagram that I feel really represents us like an infographic or I’m like, oh, that makes so much sense, I’ll send it to him. And it’s very far and few in between but I’ll be like, hey, do you like align with this as a five? And he’s like, yeah, I do or no, no, not really. And then I’ll send him the one as a two. And I’ll be like, it me. And he’ll be like, oh, yeah, like this is totally you. So he’s seeing that there’s some truth to it. And so I’ll also bring up examples of other friends who will be like oh, because she’s a seven. And what a seven means is, is that, like, you know, you know, gathering all of these fun, collectible things is a way that she copes with blah, blah, blah. And it’s starting to make a lot of sense to him, because he’s seeing, you know, behaviors represented in other people. So long story short, as I rambled, you can, if you can get that person to agree to at least understand that you know what their type is, and let you do the research and run with it, it will still really help your relationship.

[BILLY]:
All right. There you go, anonymous friend, there’s your answer.

[BRANDY]:
I think it’s all about like, and you lean very heavily to this, I think it’s all about giving grace and trying to put yourself in other people’s shoes and understand where they’re coming from. And it almost doesn’t matter what type they are to begin with, because any of the tools you use is just becoming aware that, hey, they aren’t coming at me, because they hate me. They’re not trying to attack me, they’re coming from a place of the why and the self protection, and they’re hiding something they may be unaware of. And I think just stepping back and taking the first look at the beginning of the enneagram of like, when Billy says something to me, and I take it personal, it’s not about taking it personal. It’s about hey, I wonder where he’s coming from and using any of those tools. because like you said, the best way to do it is just like, hey, help me understand that, like you don’t, you don’t have to know their number to say, hey, help me understand that. And when you do that, you might get some insight into their number because they may reveal something. But I think it’s just about giving grace to people and not coming at it from I take offense to this all the time. And if anything that would help in a relationship.

[BILLY]:
Well, that leads me into something. We’re gonna wrap this episode up, but my marketing person always said, you know, leave people wanting more. I’m not very good at that, because I want to ask all the questions and have all the answers now. But I think two topics we want to explore with you in the next year and find time to do one is just for Brandy and I as a couple. When we come upon conflict, we rarely do, just every now and then.

[BRANDY]:
How many times have we almost gotten a divorce since we woke up this morning?

[BILLY]:
Then we just say…

[BRANDY]:
How does it feel to be God’s favorite?

[BILLY]:
Yeah, I’m God’s favorite. We have an argument about who God’s favorite is. But working through conflict using the enneagram, and maybe doing that live sometime I think it’d be beneficial for our audience. And then the second topic, I wanted to ask the question today, but I think it would take so much space and time, is addiction and recovery and how the enneagram plays into that, because I know as a recovering alcoholic and an opioid addict, the enneagram has helped inform me and my recovery. And I think that would be a cool topic in the next year to tackle sometime if you’re open to it.

[JACKIE]:
Oh, yeah, absolutely. I would love that. I love to, look, I think the enneagram is an everyday thing. And I think it’s a bring it into your life and it will fit around your life and your life will fit around it. And so if that’s if that’s a sphere of life that we’re going to tackle with the enneagram I would love to do it because I want people to understand how accessible knowing themselves on a deeper level actually is.

[BILLY]:
Can’t wait, Jackie.

[BRANDY]:
Jackie, we love you.

[JACKIE]:
Love you guys.

[BRANDY]:
You’re the wind beneath our wing.

[BILLY]:
Can’t wait to see you live and in color in this life. And I know we will. And this journey has been fascinating with you and I can’t wait for just ongoing years and decades of connection and collaboration throughout our lives.

[JACKIE]:
Yeah, I’m so lucky to know you guys. Thank you guys so much. I love you and we will definitely talk soon. I love all of your people. So thank you.

[BRANDY]:
They love you.

[BILLY]:
We love yours. Jackie, we’ll talk to you soon.

[JACKIE]:
All righty.

[BILLY]:
Are you ready to find freedom to be yourself as a beta male? Do you want permission and tools to be your best beta? Are you ready to join the revolution to find your strength as a beta? If you want to be comfortable in your own skin and be the most authentic beta male, then our free Beta Male Revolution course is for you. Sign up for free at betamalerevolution.com/course.

This podcast is designed to provide accurate and authoritative information in regard to the subject matter covered. This is given with the understanding that neither the host, Practice of the Practice, or the guest are providing legal, mental health, or other professional information. If you need a professional, you should find one.

Beta Male Revolution is part of the Practice of the Practice Podcast Network, a network of podcasts seeking to help you thrive, imperfectly. To hear other podcasts like the Bomb Mom Podcast, Imperfect Thriving, or Empowered and Unapologetic, go to practiceofthepractice.com/network.

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