Jackie Coban is an Enneagram Expert & Life Coach | Episode 14

What is an enneagram? Do you know your personality type? How can knowing your intelligence center and personality type help you deal with life problems and situations?

In this podcast episode, Billy and Brandy Eldridge talk to Jackie Coban about enneagrams.

Meet Jackie Coban

Jackie Coban is an Enneagram & Life Coach: Episode 14

Jackie is a triple-certified coach in Life Coaching, Enneagram Coaching, and Neurolinguistic Programming. She is the founder of Table For 9 Coaching and the host of the Table for 9 podcast. She is a quick-witted, passionate, fire-cracker woman whose personal philosophy is that it IS possible to see people win in life, love, and work.

Jackie is a coach who works with various individuals and groups to help them embrace who they are and what they bring to the table, no pun intended. She is well-balanced in where she has worked: law offices, anti-sex trafficking movements, the non-profit sector, human resources, finance, and the like. She had one thing in common in all places: the pull to “make it work” for everyone. After leading 5+ teams simultaneously at a non-profit organization, she realized what everyone brought to the table was truly different and equally valuable, and she wanted other people to see it, too.

Visit Jackie’s website and connect on Instagram. Listen to her podcast here.

In This Podcast

Summary

  • Ugly mirrors
  • Jackie’s “aha” moment
  • WTF is the enneagram?
  • The enneagram and spirituality

Ugly mirrors

There’s gotta be a why, but I can’t figure it out.

Based on the expectations around Jackie, she had been suppressing a lot. You run away as much as you can but you realize you can’t run from yourself and you finally hit a breaking point. You’re stuck with yourself, you’re in this place of knowing what’s going on around you, you know what you’re doing, and you see what you’re doing, but you can’t figure out why you’re doing it. When you don’t have something that tells you this is a stop sign, when you don’t have boundaries, and when you’re stuck, all you’re looking at is a mirror that you can’t explain. You have to look at this person in the mirror and acknowledge that you’re going to take her wherever you go but you’re going to embrace her and figure out what the healthiest version of her is.

Jackie’s “aha” moment

Rock bottom doesn’t have to be your only teacher. Every single day we can choose to look at ourselves and ask why.

A couple of years ago, Jackie started working with survivors of trafficking. This is when she started to realize that there was a lot more to her than what she was singing. Jackie’s moment came when she hit rock bottom but she tells her clients that rock bottom doesn’t have to be their only teacher. Every day, we can choose to look at ourselves and ask why. Asking yourself that constantly and doing that little work helps you avoid rock bottom and start the journey to self-awareness.

WTF is the enneagram?

The enneagram is a personality test that defines nine types of people:

1. The perfectionist or the reformer

At their core, they feel like if the world around them is not perfect, they’re not perfect. They fear being bad or unredeemable, because that’s what imperfection means to them.

2. The helper

The kind of people that are really warm and approachable, but they honestly feel that if they’re not needed, they’re not going to be loved or seen.

3. The achiever or the best

The people you look at and say they’re CEO bound. Their worth is tied to their work and they struggle a lot with imposter syndrome. They hide their emotions away from themselves because it gets in the way of work.

4. The individualist or the romantic

The feelers, they don’t do feelings, they are feelings. If they don’t stand out in some kind of way then they are going to fade away, won’t be remembered, and aren’t going to leave their mark on the world.

5. The investigator or the theorist

They rely heavily on knowledge because they fear to look incompetent, running out of time and being depleted. Knowledge takes less energy than feelings do so they really live up in their brains.

6. The loyalist or the guardian

The guardians for the rules. Anything that could go wrong, could go wrong so they need to plan for it. For them, fear is fear itself, or the fear of the possibility of not having things planned.

7. The enthusiasts or the party

They are super fun, super enthusiastic, and like adventure after adventure. They jump from one thing to the other because they fear being trapped in emotional pain and understand that if they start to feel this then it might never stop because it is so deep.

8. The challenger or the dragon

They’re the people that will stomp on the ice between you to make sure it’s solid. They can be aggressive, are straight to the point, and are going to be honest with you. Their biggest fear is being rejected or being blindsided and betrayed or at the mercy of injustice. Protecting people and themselves is a high priority, that’s what makes them and gives them strength.

9. The peacemakers or the wallflower

They’re the people you want to go to, to understand your side of the story. They take on people’s opinions because they don’t want conflict. There is nothing worse than conflict, especially direct conflict, and they’ll do anything to avoid it.

The enneagram and spirituality

When it comes to connecting to your enneagram type, it’s literally like raking leaves so you can see the path between you and the divinity in yourself, whatever faith or spirituality, or even non-faith you are. There is something that connects you to the world around you, the people around you.

These things around you that connect you and make you human, those are divine, and that’s inside of you. The enneagram doesn’t just make sense, it bridges the gap between you and your mind, understanding yourself and the divine that’s already inside of you. If you go to mosque, church, another spiritual gathering, or even to yoga class or sit outside on the grass, you are connecting yourself to some sort of community in a sense, but really, it’s just facilitated by the divinity that’s already inside of you.

The biggest understanding that we have to come to is that, regardless of what we believe, we are spiritual beings simply because of the fact that we can connect to things outside of ourselves. And, when there’s a disconnect within ourselves, that’s where we find the disconnect everywhere else. So step one is connecting within ourselves. The enneagram facilitates that and from there you find this ability to connect to all these other things around you.

Books mentioned in this episode

Are you ready to find the freedom to be yourself as a beta male? Do you want permission and tools to be your best beta? Are you ready to join the revolution to find strength as a beta? If you want to be comfortable in your skin and be the most authentic beta male, then our free beta revolution course is for you. Sign up for free.

Useful links:

Meet Billy Eldridge

billy-eldridge

Meet Billy, the resident beta male. For Billy, this is a place to hang out with other beta males and the people who love them. We’re redefining what beta males look like in the world. I have learned to embrace my best beta self, and I can help you to do the same. As a therapist, I understand the need to belong. You belong here. Join the REVOLUTION.

 

Meet Brandy Eldridge

brandy-eldridge

Hello, Beta friends. I am an alpha personality who is embracing the beta way of life. I feel alive when connected with people, whether that is listening to their stories or learning about their passions. Forget small talk, let’s go deep together. Come to the table and let’s have some life-changing conversations.

 

Thanks for listening!

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Podcast Transcription

[BILLY]:
Hey guys. I am a therapist and between writing notes, filing insurance claims, and scheduling with clients, it can be hard to stay organized. That’s why I recommend TherapyNotes. This easy to use platform lets you manage your practice securely and efficiently. Visit therapynotes.com. To get two free months of TherapyNotes today, just use the promo code JOE, capital J-O-E when you sign up for a free trial at therapynotes.com.

Hello guys. It’s Billy with the Beta Male Revolution. I’m here today with the lovely and talented Brandy Eldridge. And today we have Jackie Coban. She is an enneagram expert and life coach and we’re so excited to have a talk about what in the world is the enneagram and get into that a little bit. It’s been a big part of Brandy and I’s life and us learning about ourselves and us working on our relationship and how we understand each other. It gives us a lens through which to deal with each other during some of our more difficult times.

[BRANDY]:
Or you mean love on each other.

[BILLY]:
Love on each other. When I’m able to pull out my list of how to argue with a seven, it’s a lot easier for me to understand you and where you’re coming from. But it’s been powerful for us so we can’t wait for Jackie to get into it. We also have some folks here recording today from the local magazine.

[BRANDY]:
Texarkana Monthly, so a shout out to all of our friends at Texarkana Monthly.

[BILLY]:
If you hear background noise, that’s just a bunch of our friends that are excited about the podcast and we’re talking about their magazine.

[BRANDY]:
They’re all in beta swag right now, the hat, the signs, everything is good now.

[BILLY]:
Oh, it’s so great to have support.

[BRANDY]:
Jackie, I want to nerd out but I’m not going to. I’m going to hold all my passion. I’m going to try to like suppress everything I want to ask you because the enneagram, like Billy said, has been such an amazing part of our life. And to have an enneagram expert on our podcast finally gives language to everything we haven’t been able to say up until this point. We’ve tried not to say things about the enneagram. So, we’re going to just be quiet and let you do talk for a minute. And if you could just tell us about yourself, how you came to find the enneagram yourself, and then briefly kind of go through the nine enneagram numbers. Jackie, thank you for being here.

[JACKIE]:
Oh, my goodness. Thank you for having me. Excuse me, did I hear beta swag?

[BILLY]:
Yes, we will send you some beta swag, some hats, and…

[JACKIE]:
Oh, I’m excited for that. Well, thank you for having me. I appreciate it. I feel like I’ve known you guys for a long time, so I’m excited to see what I can give to the podcast. But, in short, I’m Jackie and I’m short, and… well, long story short, I was working at a bunch of nonprofits, was headhunted for one after the other and realistically, I didn’t have the language at first to say, actually, I can’t be a warm body here. This is not what I’m gifted in. And it kind of started to spiral downward and I was like, well, if you ask me anything about myself, I don’t know. I only know when I’m triggered or when I’m PO’d. And so, I quit my job working at a nonprofit where I was doing seven rolls for the price of one, and I moved to North Carolina because I was like, I can’t do this. So, I got out of the swamp in New Jersey and moved there. And that’s where I kind of discovered the enneagram where I was like, why is this mirror in front of my face so ugly? And I got into it further and deeper and I was like, no, no, no, no, it’s not ugly. I’m just not managing. And so, I got into it and I was like, you know what, I know I want to be a coach, but I don’t want to generalize things for people; that doesn’t work. I want to work with the person I’m working with. And I realized that the enneagram, because it gives language to not just how we react, but our fears, desires, and motivations, which everything we do comes from that, that’s what I was like, you know what, I’m gonna work this into coaching because I think the people I work with matter. And so that’s kind of how I got into it.

[BRANDY]:
You said some really great things. The mirror, so ugly, can you go back and kind of explain what you meant by that, because it’s such a beautiful statement and I understand it, but I want to explain it for our listeners.

[JACKIE]:
Absolutely. So, I was in a season where just based on the expectations around me, I had been repressing a lot. And so, you get to a place where you finally hit a breaking point, you run away as much as you can and then you realize you can’t run from yourself. So, you’re stuck with yourself. And you’re in this place where you’re like, oh, I know what’s going on around me, like, I know what I’m doing. I see what I’m doing but I can’t figure out why. There’s got to be a why, but I can’t figure it out. Or I noticed this about myself, but I can’t stop. And when you don’t have something that says like, you know, this is a rumble strip, this is a yield sign, this is a stop sign for me. When you’re a person that doesn’t know boundaries, when you’re stuck with yourself, all you’re looking at is a mirror that you can’t explain, like you look at a mirror, but it looks like you’re looking through a window. And I had to sit there and say, okay, this is the person I’m taking with me wherever I go and I’m going to embrace her, but I’m also going to figure out what’s the healthiest version of her.

[BILLY]:
Wow, how do you get to a place like that where you have that kind of epiphany, because I’ve always said if I could bottle and package and sell the aha moment, I would, but I don’t think it was ever meant to be given in that way. It just comes about through life and we kind of make the road by walking and it just shows up. What was that moment for you where you started to do this kind of work?

[JACKIE]:
Yeah, well, so a couple years ago, right out of college, I started working with survivors of trafficking in the United States. And that’s when I started to realize that there was a lot more to me than what I was seeing and there was a lot more deep down that I didn’t know. So, for me, to answer that question honestly, it was rock bottom. But I tell all of my clients, I tell everybody I know, rock bottom doesn’t have to be your only teacher. We, every single day, can choose to look at ourselves and ask why. And doing that simple, why, like, why am I actually frustrated that there are dishes in the sink? Why am I frustrated at how I look or how this person spoke to me, even though I know in my heart they mean well? Why? Asking yourself that constantly, doing that little work, helps you avoid rock bottom but start the journey of self-awareness.

[BILLY]:
Oh, that’s enneagram gold and taking us into how it brings about awareness about who you are as a person, and our path to the enneagram started out with a podcast. We heard about the enneagram initially through Rob Bell, and then we hopped over to The Liturgists, and through The Liturgists became aware of Richard Rohr, and through Richard Rohr, we find our way to you. And it’s been this really cool path and I say, you know, we understand it at a surface level, but I realized it can go really deep. Brandy understands it more than I do. She teaches it.

[BRANDY]:
I just gave him a dirty look.

[BILLY]:
Yeah, this [unclear] said that. I’m pretty sure I’m a nine. Pretty sure Brandy’s a seven. Take us through… your initial podcast was WTF is the Enneagram. WTF is the enneagram, Jackie?

[JACKIE]:
Yes, I’m gonna help with that. So, I’m going to try my best to blow through the nine types. Type One is called the perfectionist or the reformer, and at their core, they really feel like if the world around them is not perfect, they’re not perfect. And they fear being bad or unredeemable because that’s what imperfection means to them. Type Two is called the helper; I’m a Type Two myself. And they’re the kind of people that are really warm and approachable, but they honestly feel that if they’re not needed, they’re not going to be loved or seen. And so, they’re also afraid that if they don’t get their hands into your life, that you’re not going to love them, and you’re pretty much just tolerating them. The Type Three, they are called the achiever. Sometimes I hear them called the best, which I think is fitting, but they are the people that you know, you look at them and you’re like, ah, CEO bound or, you know, kid CEOs and all of that. But for them, their worth is tied to their work. And so, they struggle with a lot of imposter syndrome. It’s like, I’m not enough, but even what I’ve earned is not good enough and they’ll kind of hide their emotions away from themselves because it gets in the way of work. Type Four, completely different from Type Three, is called the individualist or the romantic, and they are the feelers like, they don’t do feelings, they are feelings. And for them, it’s kind of like, if I don’t stand out, if I’m not different or unique in some kind of way, by opinion, by my dress or whatever, I’m just going to fade away. I’m not going to be remembered, I’m not going to leave my mark on this world. Type Five is called the investigator or the theorist. They are the type of people who rely heavily on knowledge because they fear looking incompetent, they fear even running out of time and being depleted, and knowledge takes less energy than feelings do so they really live up in their brains. Type Six is called the loyalist or the guardian. Loyalist is more popular, I like the guardian because I think they are the guardian for the rules, and they are the type of people… simply, they kind of live in code yellow all the time. Like anything that could possibly go wrong, could go wrong, and so I need to plan for it. And so, for them, their fear is fear itself, like, the fear of the possibility, or not having things planned. Type Seven, awesome Type Sevens, they’re called the enthusiasts or the party… I like to call them the Peter Pans of the enneagram. They are just super fun, super enthusiastic, like, one adventure after the other. They’re just so down to earth and so fun, but for them, typically, they jump from one thing to the other because they fear not just feeling, or feeling something negative, but being trapped in emotional pain. And they understand that there’s like a depth in them, and if I start to feel this, I might not ever stop – it is too deep to open up this can of whoop ass on myself, so I’m not going to do that. Type Eight is called the challenger or the contrarian. I like calling them the dragons because I love that, I love that they breathe fire, but they are, they’re the people that will stomp on the ice between you to make sure it’s solid. They can be aggressive, they’re straight to the point, they will tell you that dress makes you look fat, they’re going to be honest with you. But for them, their biggest fear is being rejected or being blindsided and betrayed or at the mercy of injustice. And so, for them, protecting people and themselves is a high priority. And that’s what gives them strength. The Type Nine, the awesome Type Nine, they are called the peacemakers, or the wallflowers and they are the…

[BILLY]:
I like that you called them awesome.

[JACKIE]:
They are. But they are the people that… men, they’re the people that you want to go to understand your side of the story. And the reality of it is they kind of take on people’s opinions because simply they don’t want conflict and there is nothing worse than conflict. They’ll do anything to avoid it. And so, whether it’s… especially direct conflict, like, tension in a room is sucky, but it’s bearable, but tension between two people, you and them, is unbearable. So, they’ll be like, yeah, yeah, Chinese is good tonight. Chinese is good tonight. Or whatever that looks like. And suddenly, the dam bursts, because it’s kind of like, man, does this person even know me at all? But they’re the ones that kind of bury the line in the sand. And so that’s just like an overall of all of the nine types.

[BRANDY]:
I love that… right now we’re just at level one with you and with this, and I know that for me, I’ve never liked a personality test because I don’t feel like anything should put me in a box. I don’t like to be labeled. Billy and I’ve talked about this since we got married, and today happens to be our 12-year anniversary, which we…

[JACKIE]:
Congratulations.

[BILLY]:
Happy Anniversary.

[BRANDY]:
You forgot, but then Facebook feed brought it up and we’re like, oh, it’s today.

[BILLY]:
11 years today.

[BRANDY]:
It’s 12 years today.

[BILLY]:
I mean 12 years today.

[JACKIE]:
Congratulations on your 10- to 13-year mark.

[BRANDY]:
That’s right. That’s right. It’s somewhere… it’s past 10. But I think it’s funny because when I read the enneagram and started getting into it, I was like, I’m doing that. And Billy is actually the one that brought it up to me. I was like, I’m not doing that, you can’t put me in a box, you don’t know me. And I start going back to my days in the hood, like, you can’t tell me who I am. You don’t know me. And then I’d read this enneagram, and for about a year I was typed… I thought I was an eight because everybody kept telling me I was an eight. And so, I’d read through it, and I was like, I guess I’m an eight. And then it was no, you’re a three. You’re a three because you’re an executive director, because of this, because of that. Like, you’ve got to be a three, you’re the achiever. And I was like, yeah, I’m really not an achiever, but sure, if that’s what you guys think I am. And then I read the seven and I remember reading it, and the reason I didn’t read it is because I heard someone say somewhere, everybody wants to be a seven. And I’m like, well, I’m not everybody. So, I’m not a seven. And I went and read it and I’m in my car and I’m probably gonna start crying. I just started like, reading my mail. And I just remember that feeling of, I’m not crazy. For so long people thought that – and Billy too – like, these are characteristics and I should be in trouble for them, and it’s the first time I ever believed in something that said, you’re not crazy. There are other people like you, there are other sevens that think this way. And it was such a permission for the first time to be myself, but then also not make excuses for being myself if that makes sense. I’m sorry, I’m going to cry. But it was such a relief. And then also just like, you can’t make excuses for these behaviors anymore. And it helped us in our marriage. It helped us… so anyway, I just needed to share that because for people who don’t believe in enneagrams, I think that’s part of the enneagram. Is that skepticism?

[JACKIE]:
Absolutely. And that’s the thing, you know, I took a bunch of online tests, and it was like, you’re a six, you’re an eight, you’re this, you’re that, people are like, oh, you’re really smart, maybe you’re a five. And when I read the book, I read The Road Back to You. That’s the first one I read. I was like, okay, and I skipped everything except two… excuse me, I read everything except two – I skipped two, because I was like, oh this sounds like, yeah, that’s not me. That’s not me. And when I read it I wept for days, I didn’t eat, I didn’t talk to anybody because I felt like for the first time it was this inner tension, this beautiful inner tension of being so understood for the first time, but also understanding yourself and there’s a little bit of shame that comes with it and so it’s like, yeah, you’re not crazy but you have no choice but to do the work now.

[BRANDY]:
Yeah, yeah.

[BILLY]:
Yeah. Well, in my journey and kind of figuring out I’m most likely a nine. Brandy says I’m definitely a nine. A nine wing, a nine subtype, just all nine, all day long.

[BRANDY]:
I’m not typing you.

[BILLY]:
No, but there is that; she knows me as well as I know myself sometimes. So, it’s nice to have that outside perspective. And I can, you know, respect her input on that. But it was permission because though for the longest time this podcast’s about a different type of masculinity and I always felt like a fraud in the world and that I had to be a different way. And finding out that I was a nine was like a permission slip slid across the table saying it’s okay to be you, you approach the world in a softer way. You’re a feeler, you have a hard time with conflict, we’ll learn some healthy ways to deal with that. It was an uncovering and discovering of myself, keeping the things that were beneficial and discarding the things that were holding me back from being my true self. And it’s still a process, an everyday process. But it gave me a framework by which to do that work. Before I was just throwing darts in the dark trying to figure out how to grow. And this gave me a path to do that through. So, I mean, part of our biggest thing we have in this podcast is we get free therapy and free coaching. So, when you coach people, just coach us. What do you do? What do you ask them?

[JACKIE]:
Yeah, so essentially when I work with somebody, it’s typically life coaching, but it’s always centered around the enneagram. Because I can’t work with you or what you’re particularly struggling with until we put language to it. And most people don’t have tools to put language to it. So essentially, I sit with them, I do a typing session, I ask them a couple of questions. Well, the first thing I do is I break it down between what center of intelligence are they because from there, it’s easier to figure out what their type is. And then I tell them a little bit about it, I ask them if that feels true. I talked to them about the core fear and then we do a full-on typing explanation.

[BILLY]:
Yeah. So, what’s the center of intelligence?

[JACKIE]:
So, a center of intelligence is basically what your type uses as a main brain. So, you have your mind, right? But your center of intelligence is like your types brain. So for example, types two, three and four, are in the heart center, that center of intelligence, and so the heart is how they hear stories, how they tell stories, how they receive and give information, how they process what’s going on around them. They’re very heart forward, right? So, five, six, and seven are in the mind center of intelligence. And they do the same thing with their mind. And eight, nine, and one are in the gut, or the body, or the instinct. And so, their instincts, their gut, like their gut reaction, like I’m going for it, I’m gonna punch this guy in the face, like that is how they react, how they tell a story, how they receive information. And when you kind of do it like that… because when you think about it, like, two, three, and four, though they’re in the same triad, they have that one thing in common, but they’re pretty different, all three of those types. So, when you break it into triads, or the centers of intelligence, it’s a little bit easier to figure out someone’s type. And once I do that, I go through the type and from there, I ask them, look, we’re going to go more into this. There’s some stuff that you’re going to come across. I want to know now before you even hear of stuff, what do you want to work on? What are your goals? Where do you see yourself? Where do you feel stuck? What do you feel like you can’t explain? And nine times out of ten that matches with something we end up covering, or uncovering, through the enneagram. Whether it’s one of their, you know, relational styles or conflict styles, or how they are in the workplace, how to communicate in the workplace, who they are. Whatever it is, it all centers around that. So, it gives them a little bit of freedom to say, okay, this is how I am. It’s not a flaw. It’s just something that needs to be communicated.

[BILLY]:
Okay, well, okay, so let me… I’m a nine, and I know that I have a really hard time with conflict. I have some eights in my life. And I…

[BRANDY]:
Not me.

[BILLY]:
It’s not Brandy. But I have a business partner that’s an eight. And I can, a lot of times, avoid crucial conversations because they’re uncomfortable, and I get a little intimidated and afraid. How would you help somebody deal with a problem like that or find ways to work through that?

[JACKIE]:
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, at the end of the day, I don’t want to change the person for who they are. We want to unwork that fear because, well, the question is, what… conflict is uncomfortable. Yes, but that’s a really great vague, blanket statement. What does conflict do for you that makes it seem like something that you need to avoid at all costs? Like, no, conflict is the plague, I’m staying away. So that would be like the first question and from there, figuring out okay, if it’s just this baseline, like it really is just uncomfortable, and I don’t know where we go from here. So, it’s about, okay, what is your relationship like with your partner? What is your relationship like in X space? If your partner’s an eight they are probably not okay with you just putting it in an email. So, they probably want to have that conversation. So, it’s about creating an understanding with the other person, having that one really rough conversation that says, this is who I am. This is the system I use to explain it. This is how I like to give feedback, and this is how I like to receive feedback. And so, I want you to know, if I’m not matching your excitement level, if I’m not matching your aggression level, if I’m coming to you a little bit more timid to have these difficult conversations, here’s why. Please don’t take offense to that. This is how I approach things. And I’m going to do my best to understand that when you approach things in an aggressive or forward way, X, Y, and Z, but I ask of you when we have these tense work conversations, this is how I like to hear really tough things. This is how I like to hear it. Like, if you can put it in an email, please put it in an email. So, it’s really communicating with that person. This is who I am. This is why. Where’s the middle point between who you are and who I am? Because you don’t want to change yourself. The reason you guys went into business together, the reason you guys work so well together is because you bring different sides to the table to get a whole picture done. So, it’s kind of like, okay, well where’s the in-between between you and me?

[BILLY]:
Yeah, yeah. And it is that there is a powerful part of our dynamic because, let’s say, I’m the breaks and he’s the gas when we’re building something, and you know, it’s the push and pull, but just learning how to have conversations because that’s somebody I know, and I know cares about me and I care about them. I even have a hard time having conversations with people I don’t have a relationship with, like the DirecTV guy. I probably should switch the dish, but I don’t want to hurt the DirecTV guys’ salesman’s feelings by switching, but I’m paying too much for my TV service, but I have a hard time letting go and breaking up with people I need to.

[JACKIE]:
That makes a lot of sense. I mean, my boyfriend’s a five, and it’s very similar. It’s kind of like well, conflict equals feelings. Feelings are not knowledge. Feelings, too much power. Can’t do it. So, for him, like, very beta. I’ll order for him at Starbucks or you know. But when it comes to conflict, honestly, I’m more aggressive. I’m more forward. And I’ll pick and choose my moments where I, for the most part, match his style because I am more interested in coming to a conclusion that makes us a better people than I am a being right, like, I don’t have to be right all the time, I’m not that person. And so, there are some moments where I bow out and I’m not myself, and he’s the person that’s like no, no, we’re going to talk about this. And you can see that, by not pressuring him to be something else, when the time was needed that somebody needed to step up and make this thing work, he did it. So, it’s so important to let people be themselves because they will be themselves. There’s a little hero in everyone.

[BRANDY]:
I don’t like that. I need him to act the way I need him to act.

[BILLY]:
No, and I so agree, like, the ordering the coffee. It’s like, if anybody’s gonna call the yard guy and say the gutters haven’t been clean for two weeks, it’s gonna be Brandy, not me.

[BRANDY]:
But saying that, I don’t enjoy it either. I don’t enjoy that part of it. I wish that everybody would just be like, yeah, I’ll take care of it. It’s no big deal. And so, I have to, like, feather it with a lot of niceties. And Billy likes to say that I’m the most indecisive decisive person he’s ever met because I know what I want, but I can’t choose what I want. If that makes sense. If we’re going to coffee, I want all of the coffees.

[BILLY]:
She’s gonna order one of everything.

[JACKIE]:
I love that.

[BRANDY]:
But it’s very surface level. On the deeper level, I remember this argument before we found the enneagram. One of the biggest arguments we ever had that still, to this day, holds a little bit of resentment, like, I have to work it out, is Billy and I both wanted to work on our PhDs and I found this way for us to go to Germany when the kids were young. Don’t laugh.

[BILLY]:
I’m sorry.

[BRANDY]:
This is why, this is why. It was very planned out. I had it planned that we could move, we could sell everything, we didn’t have any debt any way, we could pay for everything. We could go there for two and a half years and live in Germany, get school paid for, the kids could go to school there, they were still young, they wouldn’t be missing out, we could come back. I had it all planned out and you laughed at me. And I was like, don’t you understand, like, we could learn another language we could get our PhDs paid for, the kids could travel around Europe on the weekends, like, this is the greatest thing I’ve ever come up with. And he laughed.

[BILLY]:
No, it wasn’t. It was the laugh to keep from the fear. I have to plan for two years to go to Little Rock and that’s just two hours away. She wanted to pick up and go to Germany the last minute, and I just felt my world… even though she was just tossing the idea around.

[BRANDY]:
No, I really wasn’t, like, I had it planned out. I had my applications out. I had it all ready to go. All he had to do was say, yes.

[BILLY]:
But it was so foreign to me. But the funny thing is, if I didn’t have somebody like Brandy in my life, I probably wouldn’t have ventured much past the neighborhood Walmart that’s about two miles from my house. But she gets me out of that shell, and we experience things like San Francisco, and then we argue about why we don’t need to move to Germany.

[JACKIE]:
So, the thing… and I found this so interesting because there’s a commonality between the gutter thing and the Germany thing because, when you look at it, everyone looks at things through a worldview. And that’s my biggest question, especially when I’m talking to my boyfriend because we’re planning on getting married, we’re gonna move into this house, we have dreams to move to LA, like, all of this stuff. And so, the question is when there’s a little bit of hesitancy, or he laughs and he’s like, yeah okay, it’s like, well, what lens are you seeing this out of? So, Brandy, for you, like, calling the gutter guy will not bring you… your worldview is I want to avoid pain at all costs, calling the gutter guy and picking up and moving to Germany – that’s not painful. But if Billy was like, let’s go to therapy, you’d be like, hell no.

[BRANDY]:
Oh my gosh, that’s so true. If we can’t figure it out, what’s the point?

[JACKIE]:
Right, but for Billy, those things… Now, if it was something else that you suggested, and it didn’t come with a conflict clause, he would be like, okay, maybe, we’ll think about it. We’ll weigh the pros and cons. For him, he sees the worldview through conflict. So, all of these fun things could cause conflict, but not pain. So, it’s like well, what lens are you…

[BILLY]:
I’m gonna have to mail you a check. This is good.

[JACKIE]:
So, when my boyfriend’s like, okay, I don’t know if LA is for us, I’m like, okay, well, what makes you say that, specifically? And he’ll be like, it’s not in your family. It doesn’t line up in my head yet. I’m like, okay. So now, over the last couple of months, we’ve been looking at different houses, we’ve been looking at different areas. And now he’s like, more on board. I’m like, okay, it’s not that we’re not halfway. It’s that he’s seeing things through a way different lens than I am. And most of my lenses are excitement. And so, I have to just remember that we’re in this together, and I have to wait for him to… we do this together or we don’t do it. That’s it.

[BRANDY]:
I would really like to get in to just quickly, maybe end on this, how you view the enneagram and spirituality, which may be a whole ‘nother episode. I kind of want to end on that. Because I do believe that you can just look at it and say I’m a seven, or I’m typed as a seven. But really, for me, the tool has been a connection between me and God. So, I wanted you to kind of talk about your experience, or what you believe about the enneagram and spirituality.

[BILLY]:
And let me jump in there, that what I’ve gotten to see in Brandy’s journey, is just, she says a connection between her and God. And it was at a time where none of that seemed to be working anymore. And she’s like, I don’t know if I can do this, and the enneagram provided a way where you could keep some of that and deconstruct and discard some older things that weren’t working anymore without walking completely away. So, I don’t know if that complicates things. But it was a beautiful thing to watch in something that normally would have been very scary for me to see because I don’t like… let’s just stick with old tradition, no change. Let’s do the status quo. But it’s been something we’ve been able to do together and be a safe place for each other to do that with.

[JACKIE]:
That’s really good. No, that was phrased really wonderfully. I’m going to start by saying this and I hope it’s not offensive. Oftentimes, we are afraid of what our spiritual life is going to look like when we walk away from something because we constantly doubt the fact that we’ve got divinity and spirituality inside of us. We go somewhere to a different source or to a different understanding or a different branching out and learning and a different class and genre, whatever, to further connect with what’s already inside of us. So, I’m leading with that to say that when it comes to connecting to your enneagram type, what it’s doing is it’s literally like raking leaves so you can see the path between you and the Divinity in yourself. Whatever faith or spirituality or even non faith you are, there is a little bit inside of you that is just divine because of the fact that you are a miracle, that there is something that connects you to the world around you, the people around you. The things around you that connect you, make you human, those are divine, and that’s inside of you. And so, what the enneagram does is it’s not just… it doesn’t just make sense. It bridges the gap between you and your mind understanding yourself and the divine that’s already inside of you. Now, if you further that out and go to, let’s say, to mosque or to church, or to this spiritual gathering, or even to yoga class, or sit outside on the grass, you are connecting yourself to some sort of community in a sense, but really, it’s just facilitated by the Divinity that’s already inside of you. So, the biggest understanding that we have to come to is that we are, regardless of what we believe, we are spiritual beings, simply because of the fact that we can connect to things outside of ourselves. And when there’s a disconnect within ourselves, that’s where we find the disconnect everywhere else. So, step one is connecting within ourselves and that’s what the enneagram does. It facilitates that and from there you find this ability to connect to all these other things around you. I don’t know if that answered your question.

[BRANDY]:
Oh, yeah, just want to sit with it for a second, but, wow, that’s good.

[BILLY]:
Just so good. And I know when we were first talking before we hit record, you talked about being in church, and did you even say on staff at a church?

[JACKIE]:
Yes.

[BILLY]:
Yeah. And so how has the… you know, just briefly and that was beautiful, and I don’t know that we even need to say anymore, but how has the enneagram helped bring you to where you are today? And we’ll end with that.

[JACKIE]:
Okay, sure. So, when I was on staff there, and honestly, it was beautiful. It was a beautiful work environment and it did me so well. However, that’s the place where I learned that I didn’t actually have that bridge in clear view, the bridge between me and the Divinity in myself. And so, from there, what it actually did for me was it pretty much said to me, like, hello, this is the yellow flashing light. The one thing that you can see through the fog that says, you need to understand that there’s language to describe how you are and who you are and how you work. I didn’t know any of that when I was working at the church. And so, it did me so well, basically even just by saying, hey, there’s something not right here, even if that’s all it served me, it did me so well. And so, from there is kind of where I took the journey where I was like, okay, I’m going to find the language. I’m going to find the missing piece. I’m going to look into the mirror and remind myself that it’s a mirror, not a window, right? Just take a look at myself and say, okay, this is what bridges the gap between me and the divine in me. And I have been able to further connect to people, concepts, the world around me, the earth. I mean, everything, because of that moment of being on staff at that church and having my eyes open that I didn’t have the language for myself.

[BILLY]:
Ah, it’s beautiful. Jackie, you’re an enneagram rockstar. Thank you for the work you do in the world and the way you help people get in touch with who they really are.

[BRANDY]:
I don’t want it to end. I want to do this again. Jackie, I want to have you back, for sure. I appreciate you taking the time to do this and taking it out of your schedule and leaving us with such good, golden nuggets to sit with for a while.

[BILLY]:
I can’t wait to put this out there and share with Beta Male Revolution. Thank you so much for your time today, Jackie.

[JACKIE]:
Thank you for having me. You guys are awesome.

[BILLY]:
Are you ready to find freedom to be yourself as a Beta male? Do you want permission and tools to be your best Beta? Are you ready to join the revolution to find your strength as a Beta? If you want to be comfortable in your own skin and be the most authentic Beta male, then our free Beta Male Revolution course is for you. Sign up for free at betamalerevolution.com/course.

This podcast is designed to provide accurate and authoritative information in regard to the subject matter covered. This is given with the understanding that neither the host, Practice of the Practice, or the guest are providing legal, mental health, or other professional information. If you need a professional, you should find one.

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